I too am looking for Solver, and the Analysis ToolPak. For Office 2007 (PC), they are add-ins, as they have been for previous versions of Mac Office. However, my Office 2008 "Add-Ins" folder has... NOTHING. Nil. Nada. Zippo. Anyone?
I'd like to be able to tell you it's still there somewhere but I'd be
lying:-{ You're certainly not the only one who will miss it.
I'd suggest you crank up Excel 2008 apps, go to the Help Menu, select the
Send Feedback option & give 'em a good dose of "what fer"... It may be
planned to add it back in the future, but that might not happen if you don't
make your dissatisfaction clear to MS.
Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
On 1/15/08 7:28 PM, in article ee88ac9.-1@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
"marcushe@officeformac.com" wrote:
> Hi, I just cranked up the student edition of Office 2008 and can't find the
> solver in excel or in any documentation.
>
> Please tell me solver was included, I need it for classes!
See my response to the previous post you referred to... The same applies to
Add-Ins in general. My *guess* is that the tools were predominantly
VBA-based & since VBA is gone so are the features.
Follow the same suggestion made to marcus they do listen to your feedback
(even if they didn't listen to us before the fact:-}).
Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
On 1/15/08 11:43 PM, in article ee88ac9.0@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
"Flyingdog" wrote:
> I too am looking for Solver, and the Analysis ToolPak. For Office 2007 (PC),
> they are add-ins, as they have been for previous versions of Mac Office.
> However, my Office 2008 "Add-Ins" folder has... NOTHING. Nil. Nada. Zippo.
> Anyone?
> Hi, I just cranked up the student edition of Office 2008 and can't find the
> solver in excel or in any documentation.
Please tell me solver was
> included, I need it for classes!
Unfortunately, that appears to be one of the casualties of removing VBA.
I've let the Program Manager know that a fix needs to be implemented.
I'll hammer him again when I see him today at MacWorld.
Please use Help/Send Feedback to let MacBU know that you feel the same
way - they *do* listen and use that feedback in planning updates.
Where is the
> Histogram function that I had in Excel 2004?
So far, I'm not
> impressed and would like a refund.
Add-ins won't work with Excel 2008 because VBA has been removed.
Many ATP functions (e.g., NETWORKDAYS, WORKDAY, RANDBETWEEN, etc) were
incorporated into WinXL2007, and these have also been brought to XL2008.
But the interactive functions which used VBA/Userforms could not be.
OTOH, while it's obviously more work, it's rather trivial to recreate
the output of the Histogram procedure using existing functions (e.g.,
FREQ()) and a simple chart (I suspect that's exactly what the add-in
does anyway). It would also be, at least theoretically, possible to
automate it using AppleScript.
But if you want it to be automated, you'll have to use XL04.
It is also *possible* to do a poor man's histogram using REPT - see Help
for details.
> "thats because solver is VB and office 208 doesn't support VB."
How
> can this be? The standard tools, such as the goal seek is included, and goal
> seek is basically the same thing as solver with a little different use.
Not even close!
Goal seek is an incredibly simple command that iterates on 1 cell to
produce a change on 1 other cell. It's been part of the XL code for a
long time.
Solver is an add-in developed by Frontline Systems and licensed to
Microsoft (see http://solver.com). It has *never* been part of XL, in
any version.
It has dramatically different capability - just being able to set
additional constraints makes it hardly "a little different use", much
less being able to specify different modeling parameters. Did you ever
look at the options dialog?
Does anyone know if VBA is included in one of the other 2 editions, not the Student teacher one. I need VBA it for work and want to buy the version that has it.
> Does anyone know if VBA is included in one of the other 2 editions, not the
> Student teacher one. I need VBA it for work and want to buy the version that
> has it.
I haven't played w/ it, so I dunno exactly what sort of "solving" it can
do.
In article ,
JE McGimpsey wrote:
> In article ,
> marcushe@officeformac.com wrote:
>
> > "thats because solver is VB and office 208 doesn't support VB."
How
> > can this be? The standard tools, such as the goal seek is included, and
> > goal
> > seek is basically the same thing as solver with a little different use.
>
> Not even close!
>
> Goal seek is an incredibly simple command that iterates on 1 cell to
> produce a change on 1 other cell. It's been part of the XL code for a
> long time.
>
> Solver is an add-in developed by Frontline Systems and licensed to
> Microsoft (see http://solver.com). It has *never* been part of XL, in
> any version.
>
> It has dramatically different capability - just being able to set
> additional constraints makes it hardly "a little different use", much
> less being able to specify different modeling parameters. Did you ever
> look at the options dialog?
Christine Does anyone know if VBA is included in one of the other 2 editions,
not the Student teacher one. I need VBA it for work and want to buy the
version that has it.
I've bought the student at first at noticed solver wasn't included and bought the standard edition hoping to find it and also for the exchange function of cos but solver wasn't included as well so i doubt any version would have solver
On 1/17/08 4:31 AM, in article ee88ac9.8@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, "" <> wrote:
Christine Does anyone know if VBA is included in one of the other 2
editions, not the Student teacher one. I need VBA it for work and want
to buy the version that has it.
I've bought the student at first at noticed solver wasn't included and
bought the standard edition hoping to find it and also for the exchange
function of cos but solver wasn't included as well so i doubt any version
would have solver
No version of Office 2008 for the Mac supports VBA. Any word/Excel/ or PP files that contain macros from a prior version will open, and you have the option to remove or ignore the macros. But, in no case will the macros run.
--
Bob Greenblatt [MVP], Macintosh
bobgreenblattATmsnDOTcom
I have been an Excel user going all the way back to 1986 with version 1.00 for the Mac. Every upgrade I have purchased since then offered more bang for the buck, especially Excel 98, Excel V.x, and Excel 2004.
Sadly, Microsoft has ended this streak with Excel 2008, I fear. I have used the Solver numerous times and its omission from Excel 2008 represents a value decrease for this product. It would appear that I am going to remain on Office 2004, which is still a better overall suite than iWork '08. Of all the Office programs, I use Excel the most, and its diminished value means that I cannot justify the upgrade.
The core programs (Word/PPt/Excel/Entourage*) in all three Editions of
Office 2008 are *identical*. The differences from one Edition to the next
pertain to licensing (EULA) & what's included in addition to the core
programs.
*Entourage in the Home & Student Edition is a bit of an exception in one
respect - Exchange Server support is neither included nor, AFAIK, able to be
added. Otherwise the program is the same in all Editions.
HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
On 1/17/08 4:31 AM, in article ee88ac9.8@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, "" <>
wrote:
>> Christine Does anyone know if VBA is included in one of the other 2 editions,
>> not the Student teacher one. I need VBA it for work and want to buy the
>> version that has it.
>>
>
>
> I've bought the student at first at noticed solver wasn't included and bought
> the standard edition hoping to find it and also for the exchange function of
> cos but solver wasn't included as well so i doubt any version would have
> solver
> I have been an Excel user going all the way back to 1986 with version 1.00
> for the Mac.
Late adopter!
I got a copy of XL0.9 in (IIRC) late 1984. XL's parent Multiplan before
that.
> Every upgrade I have purchased since then offered more back for
> the buck, especially Excel 98, Excel V.x, and Excel 2004.
Agree on 98 and 04. I found XLv.X mostly a port to OS X native. Not
running in Classic added value, of course.
> Sadly, Microsoft has ended this streak with Excel 2008, I fear. I
> have used the Solver numerous times and its omission from Excel 2008
> represents a value decrease for this product. It would appear that I
> am going to remain on Office 2004, which is still a better overall
> suite than iWork '08. Of all the Office programs, I use Excel the
> most, and its diminished value means that I cannot justify the
> upgrade.
Since the decision was between (a) not selling you a copy of Office2008
because you're one (like me) of the low percentage of MacOffice users
that use Solver and VBA, and (b) not selling *anyone* a copy until
Office201x, it was probably a pretty simple, if unpleasant, decision on
MacBU's part...
That said, the MacBU XL team is acutely aware of the pain for Solver
users (they certainly knew in advance, and they've been hearing it in
person from MacWorld attendees all week). Solving the Solver problem is
on their list.
Whether it can be solved at all, and if so when, is both a technical and
a resource allocation problem, so we'll have to see...
It was a severe disappointment not to see Solver in Excel 2008...in fact, Solver is critical for what I use Excel for.
If they want to keep the part of the business community that uses Excel for decision making, MacBU needs to seriously get moving and release VBA and Solver soon.
If they don't - the business community will find a program that will and the MacBU can kiss that revenue goodbye, permanently.
I just ordered mac office 08 expecting solver...if it's not available.. I will cancel it right now..
Big dissapointment. Theyre going to lost customers for this.
> I just ordered mac office 08 expecting solver...if it's not available.. I
> will cancel it right now..
Cancel your order. Solver is not available.
> Big dissapointment. Theyre going to lost customers for this.
Yup, though it'll be interesting to see what the net result is. From the
response at MacWorld this week, I'd guess that on balance Office 2008
will do rather well.
XL definitely had the hardest time this version, but Word, Entourage and
PPt got lots of positive comments, and it's certainly possible to run
Office 2008 and XL04 together.
Unbelievable. Will not use Office 2008 and go to NeoOffice. There are add-ins that do data analysis and cost nothing.
Big mistake Microsoft. The MacBu really blew it. The real agenda here is to neuter the Mac because Microsoft seeks Vista dying and Mac growing. By dumbing down Office 2008 the Mac becomes less appealing. Yeah, they make lots of money on Office Mac, but the bigger threat is the Mac OS gaining market share.
JE McGimpsey wrote:
> In article ,
> Buckeye_Jack@officeformac.com wrote:
>
>> I have been an Excel user going all the way back to 1986 with version 1.00
>> for the Mac.
>
> Late adopter!
>
> I got a copy of XL0.9 in (IIRC) late 1984. XL's parent Multiplan before
> that.
>
>> Every upgrade I have purchased since then offered more back for
>> the buck, especially Excel 98, Excel V.x, and Excel 2004.
>
> Agree on 98 and 04. I found XLv.X mostly a port to OS X native. Not
> running in Classic added value, of course.
>
>> Sadly, Microsoft has ended this streak with Excel 2008, I fear. I
>> have used the Solver numerous times and its omission from Excel 2008
>> represents a value decrease for this product. It would appear that I
>> am going to remain on Office 2004, which is still a better overall
>> suite than iWork '08. Of all the Office programs, I use Excel the
>> most, and its diminished value means that I cannot justify the
>> upgrade.
>
> Since the decision was between (a) not selling you a copy of Office2008
> because you're one (like me) of the low percentage of MacOffice users
> that use Solver and VBA, and (b) not selling *anyone* a copy until
> Office201x, it was probably a pretty simple, if unpleasant, decision on
> MacBU's part...
>
> That said, the MacBU XL team is acutely aware of the pain for Solver
> users (they certainly knew in advance, and they've been hearing it in
> person from MacWorld attendees all week). Solving the Solver problem is
> on their list.
>
> Whether it can be solved at all, and if so when, is both a technical and
> a resource allocation problem, so we'll have to see...
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In another post. It was revealed that at the Mac conference MS MacBU
team got an extreme earful about Solver Its definitely on the *to do*
list. It was noted it might not be solvable. Although If the code base
is the same between Office2007 PC and Office2008 are identical just
changes for the look and feel and key Mappings. I can't see what broke.
Except on the differences in OSX's and Windows' Math system?
DoreMacUser wrote:
> It was a severe disappointment not to see Solver in Excel 2008...in
> fact, Solver is critical for what I use Excel for.
>
> If they want to keep the part of the business community that uses Excel
> for decision making, MacBU needs to seriously get moving and release VBA
> and Solver soon.
>
> If they don't - the business community will find a program that will and
> the MacBU can kiss that revenue goodbye, permanently.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition to my last reply you still need to go to MS Office2008
Feedback Page and rage on their. You won't get a personal response. But
that will add you name to the list of those that are in need of it.
DoreMacUser wrote:
> It was a severe disappointment not to see Solver in Excel 2008...in
> fact, Solver is critical for what I use Excel for.
>
> If they want to keep the part of the business community that uses Excel
> for decision making, MacBU needs to seriously get moving and release VBA
> and Solver soon.
>
> If they don't - the business community will find a program that will and
> the MacBU can kiss that revenue goodbye, permanently.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi, I just cranked up the student edition of Office 2008 and can't find
>the solver in excel or in any documentation.
>
>Please tell me solver was included, I need it for classes!
And I was waiting for Office 2008 before buying a Macbook
Thanks Microsoft! I just had to delete Excel 2008 and reinstall Excel 2004. I am a university professor who teaches statistics and operations research. I expected this "upgrade" to make what I see on my Mac similar to what students who have PCs see on them. Not even close.
What exactly did I get for my $130? Certainly not an upgrade; more like a downgrade. I have contacted MS to let them know how disgusted I am. Do they think their Mac customers don't use add-ins like Solver and Data Analysis? Do they think we use Excel for nothing more than arranging numbers on a spreadsheet? If we were that dumb, we wouldn't be Mac users, would we?
> Thanks Microsoft! I just had to delete Excel 2008 and reinstall Excel 2004. I
> am a university professor who teaches statistics and operations research. I
> expected this "upgrade" to make what I see on my Mac similar to what students
> who have PCs see on them. Not even close.
What exactly did I get for
> my $130? Certainly not an upgrade; more like a downgrade. I have contacted MS
> to let them know how disgusted I am. Do they think their Mac customers don't
> use add-ins like Solver and Data Analysis? Do they think we use Excel for
> nothing more than arranging numbers on a spreadsheet? If we were that dumb,
> we wouldn't be Mac users, would we?
Of course they don't.
OTOH they announced a *long* time ago that they wouldn't be able to
support VBA this release. Waiting an additional year or two to release
this version for the vast majority of Mac Office users who don't use VBA
wasn't a viable option.
As a professor of operations research, you should certainly understand,
and probably approve, of this decision among the unpalatable options.
You might consider using it as a case study for your students!
While they didn't also announce specifically that Solver and the ATP
wouldn't work, it was a logical inference, since they both add-ins use
VBA. I think they made a big mistake by not making that explicit,
though, since many people obviously didn't make the connection.
The Mac Business Unit certainly knows that the lack of Solver is a major
problem for some users (and from the response here, perhaps a larger
fraction of users than they thought). It's on their list of things to
fix, if they can. Whether they can, and if so, when, hasn't been
announced.
There's better news with the ATP, of course, since all the ATP functions
are now built-in, and nearly everything else that the ATP did can be
done with built-in XL functions (which is what the ATP did behind the
scenes, for the most part), though certainly less conveniently (at least
the god-awful ATP Random Number Generator is finally dead!).
Don't know how you contacted MS, but letting them know you want Solver
and ATP wizards back via Help/Send Feedback... is a good thing. Venting
your disgust probably won't be as effective.
BTW - the people who post here aren't MS employees (with rare
exceptions). We're fellow users.
JE McGimpsey wrote:
> In article ,
> "Phillip Jones, CET" wrote:
>
>> What is Solver? and what does it do?
>
> See
>
> http://solver.com/
>
> XL's solver is a cut-down version of the products at that site.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dropping solver is not a trivial thing. Its use is required by virtually every MBA candidate and business student, not to mention the teaching community. Of course, it also used by analysts and anyone who needs to solve an optimization problem. As education is a core target segment of the Mac, Microsoft should have been aware of how students use Office on the Mac. Its not a small niche group that uses solver - its a disproportionately large part of the core customer base.
Case in point - Microsoft should have started day one with their customer's needs in mind. Its not on operations problem - its a problem of understanding who your customer is and beginning with the end in mind.
In addition to McGimpsey’s comments, I urge you and anyone else affected to send feedback to Microsoft explaining how you use Solver and why it’s inclusion with Excel is essential.
A few postings in the newsgroups would mean that people read them, grumble, maybe go away in disgust, but Microsoft won’t know how many were affected unless each one sends at a comment about their usage to the URL.
-Jim
Quoting from "Buckeye_Jack@officeformac.com" , in article ee88ac9.10@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, on [DATE:
I have been an Excel user going all the way back to 1986 with version
1.00 for the Mac. Every upgrade I have purchased since then offered more
back for the buck, especially Excel 98, Excel V.x, and Excel 2004.
Sadly, Microsoft has ended this streak with Excel 2008, I fear. I have
used the Solver numerous times and its omission from Excel 2008 represents
a value decrease for this product. It would appear that I am going to
remain on Office 2004, which is still a better overall suite than iWork
'08. Of all the Office programs, I use Excel the most, and its diminished
value means that I cannot justify the upgrade.
> Dropping solver is not a trivial thing. Its use is required by virtually
> every MBA candidate and business student, not to mention the teaching
> community. Of course, it also used by analysts and anyone who needs to
> solve an optimization problem. As education is a core target segment of the
> Mac, Microsoft should have been aware of how students use Office on the Mac.
> Its not a small niche group that uses solver - its a disproportionately
> large part of the core customer base.
Case in point - Microsoft
> should have started day one with their customer's needs in mind. Its not on
> operations problem - its a problem of understanding who your customer is and
> beginning with the end in mind.
You assert that Solver is used by a disproportionately large part of the
customer base. Do you have numbers? I'm sure that MS does...
But even assuming that MacBU underestimated the use of Solver (and I
agree they probably did at least somewhat), I'm not sure what you
expected them to change.
They presumably made the decision to drop VBA (and therefore Solver) due
to a lack of resources needed to do everything else they needed to do
and VBA. Market knowledge doesn't generate those resources.
The only option I see is to delay release until VBA was finished. You
still would be using XL04, so no different than today.
Quoting from "Chrisine" , in article ee88ac9.6@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, on [DATE:
Does anyone know if VBA is included in one of the other 2 editions, not
the Student teacher one. I need VBA it for work and want to buy the version
that has it.
Quoting from "" <>, in article ee88ac9.8@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, on [DATE:
Christine Does anyone know if VBA is included in one of the other 2
editions, not the Student teacher one. I need VBA it for work and want
to buy the version that has it.
I've bought the student at first at noticed solver wasn't included and
bought the standard edition hoping to find it and also for the exchange
function of cos but solver wasn't included as well so i doubt any version
would have solver
If you use that URL the Office 2008 product isn’t even listed as one of the choices!
I don’t know what to tell you. Call Microsoft support and ask them. Office 2004 had a 90 day money back warranty. I don’t know what it is for Office 2008.
Microsoft has been itching to get rid of VBA for quite some time. When Apple switched to Intel processors the VBA compiler died, as it was programmed for PPC processors. So at that juncture they made a decision to ditch VBA on the Mac and go ahead with Office 2008 without it. The 2008 version would have had to be delayed 2 or more years if they had decided to keep VBA, and I think they were hoping they could permanently get rid of VBA beginning with this release.
As soon as I found out that VBA was going away (they announced it quite some time ago) I expressed to Microsoft what you just said – that the higher education market will be heavily affected. So much so that I don’t know whether or not most people in higher education will be able to use Office 2008. I work at a large University and am uncertain how I will recommend that we proceed with this new version.
State your case, but also include your credentials along with details about the scenarios you described. From the wording you used it sounds like you are an influencer in the higher education sector. Your feedback at this juncture would be appreciated.
Thanks.
-Jim
Quoting from "Alex" , in article ee88ac9.32@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, on [DATE:
Dropping solver is not a trivial thing. Its use is required by virtually
every MBA candidate and business student, not to mention the teaching
community. Of course, it also used by analysts and anyone who needs
to solve an optimization problem. As education is a core target segment
of the Mac, Microsoft should have been aware of how students use Office
on the Mac. Its not a small niche group that uses solver - its a disproportionately
large part of the core customer base.
Case in point - Microsoft should have started day one with their customer's
needs in mind. Its not on operations problem - its a problem of understanding
who your customer is and beginning with the end in mind.
Probably too late for many, but your old version of Excel can co-exist with the new version. During 2008 installation, do not select "delete previous versions of Office..." near the end of the installation process.
> Probably too late for many, but your old version of Excel can co-exist with
> the new version. During 2008 installation, do not select "delete previous
> versions of Office..." near the end of the installation process.
>
Regards,
It shouldn't be too late for anyone - you can always reinstall XL04.
Solver is important to my research work and I have come to rely on it. Surely Microsoft has to offer an alternative solution. New products generally get more features not fewer
> Solver is important to my research work and I have come to rely on it. Surely
> Microsoft has to offer an alternative solution. New products generally get
> more features not fewer
Make sure you send feedback via Help/Send Feedback... to let MacBU know
how important it is to you.
Solver is a casualty of not being able to include VBA in Office 2008.
MacBU certainly knows that its removal is painful for some users.
Whether, and if so when, a fix can be made depends on both the technical
difficulty and competing priorities.
In the mean time, if other aspects of Office 2008 make it worthwhile to
use (and there *are* lots of new features), you can still run XL04 with
Office 2008.
The lack of Solver and VBA support are simply unacceptable. I use both extensively in research applications. There are many, many things that cannot be done without these features.
> The lack of Solver and VBA support are simply unacceptable. I use both
> extensively in research applications. There are many, many things that cannot
> be done without these features.
Then make sure you use Help/Send Feedback to tell MS exactly how you use
Solver and VBA.
FWIW, "simply unacceptable" isn't really particularly helpful. It's not
like MacBU just decided to remove VBA support (and with it, Solver) on a
whim. Their decision was a matter of time and available resources. They
didn't have the resources to bring it along in the timeframe of this
release.
Whether, and if so, when, a fix becomes available depends on market
demand, technical difficulty, and resource allocation. Of the three, we
can only really affect one, so make sure your voice is heard.
The loss of solver will kill the use of Office at the undergraduate level. As an instructor I am required to make sure that my examples and homework problems can be done by students who own Mac's or PC's. I use solver extensively for small optimization problems - but I will no longer be able to do that.
Creating significant functional discrepancies in the same software between the two hardware platforms means that the software cannot be adopted on EITHER platform in educational environments where it is difficult to prescribe that students buy one platform or the other.
We understand - and most agree with - what you're saying, but this newsgroup
can do nothing about it... IOW, you're preaching to the choir
Based on the number of negative posts I've seen on similar issues there's no
doubt MS is acutely aware of the impact, but what - if anything - may happen
to resolve it depends on what type of direct feedback they get from their
client base.
If you want to express your concern where it may do some good, go to Excel's
Help menu & use the Send Feedback feature.
Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
On 1/26/08 11:56 PM, in article ee88ac9.46@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, "Matthew
Realff " <> wrote:
> The loss of solver will kill the use of Office at the undergraduate level. As
> an instructor I am required to make sure that my examples and homework
> problems can be done by students who own Mac's or PC's. I use solver
> extensively for small optimization problems - but I will no longer be able to
> do that.
>
> Creating significant functional discrepancies in the same software between the
> two hardware platforms means that the software cannot be adopted on EITHER
> platform in educational environments where it is difficult to prescribe that
> students buy one platform or the other.
> The loss of solver will kill the use of Office at the undergraduate level. As
> an instructor I am required to make sure that my examples and homework
> problems can be done by students who own Mac's or PC's. I use solver
> extensively for small optimization problems - but I will no longer be able to
> do that.
>
> Creating significant functional discrepancies in the same software between
> the two hardware platforms means that the software cannot be adopted on
> EITHER platform in educational environments where it is difficult to
> prescribe that students buy one platform or the other.
I'll re-post an alternative solver tool, which does have both a Mac and
Win version: Equato.
The documentation is a bit sketchy and the UI is a bit clunky, but
heck, it's freeware. (Incidentally, it's written by one of the original
creators of TK!Solver, a tool I loved back in the early Mac days).
If you like Equato, let me know and I can pass along some hints and
techniques I found (including the graphing window) that aren't on his
source web page.
Carl
Or, you could grab some MatLab code to execute Newton-Raphson solver
algorithm. Either rewrite it in the language of your choice, or run it
on the freeware clones like FreeMat or Octave (or I believe SciLab as
well).
On Jan 19, 3:04 pm, "Phillip Jones, CET" wrote:
> In another post. It was revealed that at the Mac conference MS MacBU
> team got an extreme earful about Solver Its definitely on the *to do*
> list. It was noted it might not be solvable. Although If the code base
> is the same between Office2007 PC and Office2008 are identical just
> changes for the look and feel and key Mappings. I can't see what broke.
> Except on the differences in OSX's and Windows' Math system?
>
> DoreMacUser wrote:
> > It was a severe disappointment not to see Solver in Excel 2008...in
> > fact, Solver is critical for what I use Excel for.
>
> > If they want to keep the part of the business community that uses Excel
> > for decision making, MacBU needs to seriously get moving and release VBA
> > and Solver soon.
>
> > If they don't - the business community will find a program that will and
> > the MacBU can kiss that revenue goodbye, permanently.
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
> 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
> Martinsville Va 24112 |pjo...@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
>
> mailto:pjo...@kimbanet.com
>
> http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
> http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm
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> http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm
>
> http://www.vpea.org
No Solver in Excel 08 means I won't be buying it (yes, I sent a
message to MacBU explaining my reasons).
But...
I cannot find anything on the Mactopia website explaining just what is
NEW (aside from a lack of Solver and VBA) in Excel 08. And, from what
I've read in all of these discussions is that the only new feature
users would want is colored worksheet tabs. So, just out of curiosity,
can anyone tell me,
"What's new???"
> No Solver in Excel 08 means I won't be buying it (yes, I sent a
> message to MacBU explaining my reasons).
> But...
> I cannot find anything on the Mactopia website explaining just what is
> NEW (aside from a lack of Solver and VBA) in Excel 08. And, from what
> I've read in all of these discussions is that the only new feature
> users would want is colored worksheet tabs. So, just out of curiosity,
> can anyone tell me,
> "What's new???"
Hmmm... a quick search on MacTopia (search phrase "what's new") brought
up this Mactopia page
On Jan 31, 8:37 pm, JE McGimpsey wrote:
> In article
> ,
>
> jpdphd wrote:
> > No Solver in Excel 08 means I won't be buying it (yes, I sent a
> > message to MacBU explaining my reasons).
> > But...
> > I cannot find anything on the Mactopia website explaining just what is
> > NEW (aside from a lack of Solver and VBA) in Excel 08. And, from what
> > I've read in all of these discussions is that the only new feature
> > users would want is colored worksheet tabs. So, just out of curiosity,
> > can anyone tell me,
> > "What's new???"
>
> Hmmm... a quick search on MacTopia (search phrase "what's new") brought
> up this Mactopia page
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2oev7t
Ahhh, thanks. My search was "new features".
I'm not very impressed. People who know how to use Excel will probably
not benefit so much from templates (aka ledger sheets), tweaked
function help (aka formula builder & autocomplete - gee whiz, you
don't have to memorize formulas in Excel 04), and charts that place
more emphasis on being pretty (aka improved charting) than conveying
information (sorry, that's my pet peeve - especially, using 3D to
display 2D info).
Maybe I'm just cantankerous or maybe its sour grapes but I have no
regrets about sticking with Excel 04.
Open up Excel 2008 go to Help menu and click on Feedback give your
credentials (to sway them better and give reasons for needing Solver.
Maybe they will put it back some time in the future. Maybe even figuring
out away for it to work without VBA.
Worth a shot anyway.
noibs@officeformac.com wrote:
> I'm a prof who teaches some introductory linear programming to
> undergraduates. I simply cannot believe that Solver is not included in
> Excel 2008.
>
> Calling Excel 2008 "Excel" is just wrong. It should be "Excel Lite."
>
> Now where did I put my install disk for Excel 2004? It never occurred it
> me even once that Solver would be dropped.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article
<5eaa0f45-f9c3-40e0-ab7a-80c309d6fa61@i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
jpdphd wrote:
> Maybe I'm just cantankerous or maybe its sour grapes but I have no
> regrets about sticking with Excel 04.
I won't say that formula builder and ledger sheets aren't useful for
light users, but for a power user, they're not going to be compelling.
XL is definitely the app that gives the least reason to upgrade.
As I understand it, it's also the app that was hardest to convert to the
new file format, which kind of makes sense, given the change in number
of rows and columns, and how that likely affected just about everything
in the calculation engine.
You know, I'd love to believe the "MacBU resource constraints" argument as the reason that VBA/Solver functionality was dropped from Excel. However, this isn't some small indie software shop trying to keep their head above water. This is Microsoft - a company with vast resources that generally thinks in the long term. I can't imagine the lack of VBA and Solver in Excel 2008 was due to budgetary constraints or lack of headcount in the MacBU. If Microsoft thought that VBA and Solver were important in their long term strategic plans, they would have both been in Office 2008.
There are two reasons why Solver and VBA didn't show up in Mac Office 2008:
1. Attempted bifurcation of the Mac Office user base.
2. Starting the long death of VBA.
First, the bifurcation of the Mac Office user base. Mac Office 2008 satisfies the casual users that can almost get by with iWork, but not quite (let's face it: Numbers has a looonnng way to go). The message for more advanced Office users (like those of us who use VBA and Solver) is clear: If you want the "full" version of Office on your Mac, buy VMWare, XP/Vista, and the Windows version of Office. It's not ideal, but it can be made to work. That keeps a Windows OS on your system and allows Microsoft to concentrate the premium functionality of Office into a single Windows version. Whether the underlying hardware platform is a Mac or not is immaterial. For Microsoft, the margins are actually better when a Mac user buys a boxed version of XP/Vista and Office instead of getting it bundled with a new Dell.
The other issue is VBA itself. Solver may make a comeback in a future version of Excel 2008 depending on how loud the screams get, but VBA will never see the light of day on the Mac again. Microsoft would love to kill VBA on Windows as well, since it is a dead-end code base in terms of their .NET strategy, so it didn't make any sense to put any effort into a new version of VBA for Mac Office. Microsoft has pledged that VBA will remain in the next version of Windows Office (after some reports to the contrary [1]), but they also stopped licensing Windows VBA to third parties last July and have recommended that new Windows Office applications and add-ins (like the Solver) be written using Visual Studio Tools for Applications or Visual Studio Tools for Office, both .NET environments that have no VBA anywhere and will never be offered on the Mac. Nothing substantial has been improved in VBA for years, so it's clear that it is on it's way out on Windows too. Much like Microsoft's old C++ GUI MFC library, it's just a matter of how long it takes to kill it off.
Microsoft is treading on thin ice here. There is another subtle point here on backwards compatibility that goes back to the introduction of .NET. VBA was an outgrowth of Visual Basic. When .NET was evolving, Microsoft realized that the original Visual Basic language could not be turned into a .NET language as-is. So they enhanced the language and chose to break backward compatibility with old VB code. Before switching to the Mac when OS X came out, I was a long time Windows developer, and this was the first time I ever saw Microsoft ruin backward compatibility on purpose (See [2] for an interesting essay about this from the former Microsoft developer who wrote the original VBA spec). Visual Basic.NET is a completely different beast, and older non-.NET VB code won't run in .NET. When all of the VB coders realized that their VB code needed a line-by-line port to work in VB.NET, a lot of them stopped, and for the first time, lifted their head out of the sand, and looked around for other solutions. The thought was, "If I need to rewrite this anyways, maybe I should use Java/Python/Ruby/PHP/Flash/etc.". And that's what a lot of them did.
What's this have to do with Mac Office? Well, there's a similar force at work here. From version 1.0 until Excel 2008, I never considered using anything except Excel. It was the gold standard - both for compatibility and for features. But both compatibility and features have taken a big hit with Excel 2008, and now I'm looking at the vast number of spreadsheets I have with VBA code that won't run in Mac Excel 2008 today and probably won't run in Windows Excel 2010 (or whenever VBA disappears completely), and I'm making that same assessment - If my features are gone and I'm breaking backwards compatibility, why stick with Excel? There's no way I'm using Applescript to automate spreadsheets - it's a far worse language than VBA ever was. So I'm pausing to look around for other options. And you know what? It's kind of refreshing. I don't expect to find a drop-in Excel replacement, but the market forces will fill the void in time.
I'm not really frustrated by any of this. I can't say that I agree with the choices Microsoft made for Mac Office 2008, but I assume they made them after thorough realization of the various issues that would arise. And I'm not anti-Microsoft. I very much like the MacBU and have a lot of respect for what they accomplish, but in the end, I don't think this was their call.
The "new features" of Excel are pretty ridiculous. And the can't compensate the loss of VB and the solver.
I will not buy Office 2008 until these deficiencies are eliminated.
On 2/3/08 3:03 PM, in article ee88ac9.55@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, "JB" wrote:
You know, I'd love to believe the "MacBU resource constraints" argument
as the reason that VBA/Solver functionality was dropped from Excel. However,
this isn't some small indie software shop trying to keep their head above
water. This is Microsoft - a company with vast resources that generally
thinks in the long term. I can't imagine the lack of VBA and Solver in
Excel 2008 was due to budgetary constraints or lack of headcount in the
MacBU. If Microsoft thought that VBA and Solver were important in their
long term strategic plans, they would have both been in Office 2008.
Well, you can believe what you want. But, MacBU is just like a “small indie software shop...” And, like them have limited resources, and budge. Headcount by itself, is not necessarily the solution. Great Mac programmers (for something as complex as Excel) can’t be easily grown, or found.
There are two reasons why Solver and VBA didn't show up in Mac Office
2008:
1. Attempted bifurcation of the Mac Office user base.
2. Starting the long death of VBA.
I think #1 is just conspiracy theory. Think what you want, but I’ll bet a whole lot that this is NOT a long term Microsoft strategy, or even a desirable side effect. I agree with #2, for the reasons you state below. But, I’ll bet again that it had absolutely no effect on the decision to eliminate VBA fro Excel 2008
First, the bifurcation of the Mac Office user base. Mac Office 2008 satisfies
the casual users that can almost get by with iWork, but not quite (let's
face it: Numbers has a looonnng way to go). The message for more advanced
Office users (like those of us who use VBA and Solver) is clear: If you
want the "full" version of Office on your Mac, buy VMWare, XP/Vista, and
the Windows version of Office. It's not ideal, but it can be made to work.
That keeps a Windows OS on your system and allows Microsoft to concentrate
the premium functionality of Office into a single Windows version. Whether
the underlying hardware platform is a Mac or not is immaterial. For Microsoft,
the margins are actually better when a Mac user buys a boxed version of
XP/Vista and Office instead of getting it bundled with a new Dell.
Hogwash. These are possible solutions as a way out of the current problem. There was just some very simple (but not easy) business decisions to define what could be made available within the allocated time frame with the resources available.
The other issue is VBA itself. Solver may make a comeback in a future
version of Excel 2008 depending on how loud the screams get, but VBA will
never see the light of day on the Mac again. Microsoft would love to kill
VBA on Windows as well, since it is a dead-end code base in terms of their
.NET strategy, so it didn't make any sense to put any effort into a new
version of VBA for Mac Office. Microsoft has pledged that VBA will remain
in the next version of Windows Office (after some reports to the contrary
[1]), but they also stopped licensing Windows VBA to third parties last
July and have recommended that new Windows Office applications and add-ins
(like the Solver) be written using Visual Studio Tools for Applications
or Visual Studio Tools for Office, both .NET environments that have no
VBA anywhere and will never be offered on the Mac. Nothing substantial
has been improved in VBA for years, so it's clear that it is on it's way
out on Windows too. Much like Microsoft's old C++ GUI MFC library, it's
just a matter of how long it takes to kill it off.
Microsoft is treading on thin ice here. There is another subtle point
here on backwards compatibility that goes back to the introduction of
.NET. VBA was an outgrowth of Visual Basic. When .NET was evolving, Microsoft
realized that the original Visual Basic language could not be turned into
a .NET language as-is. So they enhanced the language and chose to break
backward compatibility with old VB code. Before switching to the Mac when
OS X came out, I was a long time Windows developer, and this was the first
time I ever saw Microsoft ruin backward compatibility on purpose (See
[2] for an interesting essay about this from the former Microsoft developer
who wrote the original VBA spec). Visual Basic.NET is a completely different
beast, and older non-.NET VB code won't run in .NET. When all of the VB
coders realized that their VB code needed a line-by-line port to work
in VB.NET, a lot of them stopped, and for the first time, lifted their
head out of the sand, and looked around for other solutions. The thought
was, "If I need to rewrite this anyways, maybe I should use Java/Python/Ruby/PHP/Flash/etc.".
And that's what a lot of them did.
What's this have to do with Mac Office? Well, there's a similar force
at work here. From version 1.0 until Excel 2008, I never considered using
anything except Excel. It was the gold standard - both for compatibility
and for features. But both compatibility and features have taken a big
hit with Excel 2008, and now I'm looking at the vast number of spreadsheets
I have with VBA code that won't run in Mac Excel 2008 today and probably
won't run in Windows Excel 2010 (or whenever VBA disappears completely),
and I'm making that same assessment - If my features are gone and I'm
breaking backwards compatibility, why stick with Excel? There's no way
I'm using Applescript to automate spreadsheets - it's a far worse language
than VBA ever was. So I'm pausing to look around for other options. And
you know what? It's kind of refreshing. I don't expect to find a drop-in
Excel replacement, but the market forces will fill the void in time.
I'm not really frustrated by any of this. I can't say that I agree with
the choices Microsoft made for Mac Office 2008, but I assume they made
them after thorough realization of the various issues that would arise.
And I'm not anti-Microsoft. I very much like the MacBU and have a lot
of respect for what they accomplish, but in the end, I don't think this
was their call.
You might want to watch the development of the Mac OS X version of OpenOffice.org as OpenOffice.org 3.0 will include a solver. You can follow the development of the Mac version of OpenOffice.org by frequently taking a look at the following blog:
I'm using an early build of the OpenOffice.org Mac version on my MacBook Pro and even though it's still some kind of alpha version, OpenOffice.org has been very stable. I use it for my day-to-day productive work.
this sucks - it just shows the "take what i give you" mentality MSFT has. There may be a bunch of lawyer speak to explain the rationale for this but in the end the customer gets pounded.
On 2/11/08 5:07 PM, in article ee88ac9.63@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, "von cameron " <> wrote:
great!
is there a macro out their that replaces the solver or do i have to build
it?
Excel 2008 currently has no solver. If you are going to build a macro to do this, it will have to be in Apple Script or XLM. Let us know when you are done as many here are anxiously awaiting a solver for Excel 2008.
--
Bob Greenblatt [MVP], Macintosh
bobgreenblattATmsnDOTcom
On Feb 12, 7:56 am, Bob Greenblatt wrote:
> On 2/11/08 5:07 PM, in article ee88ac9...@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, "von
>
> cameron " <> wrote:
> > great!
> > is there a macro out their that replaces the solver or do i have to build it?
>
> Excel 2008 currently has no solver. If you are going to build a macro to do
> this, it will have to be in Apple Script or XLM. Let us know when you are
> done as many here are anxiously awaiting a solver for Excel 2008.
>
> --
> Bob Greenblatt [MVP], Macintosh
> bobgreenblattATmsnDOTcom
1. Why is it that Microsoft could get XLM into XL08 but not VBA? Don't
they both require extensive reprogramming after Apple's switching to
Intel processors?
2. Why doesn't Microsoft put Solver into XLM format for all the hungry
solver freaks out here? They have the code, the code works well. It
would take a lot of time for someone to have to start from scratch.
Does this make sense, or am I missing something???
It's my assumption that Apple's requirement that new code be developed in the XCode environment throws a monkey wrench in the works. Microsoft has been developing in anything BUT XCode. My own experience with XCode is that the learning and re-architecting of software to fit its expectations, limitations, and perversities is offputting!
On 2/12/08 1:20 PM, in article
0f4ce7a2-aa3c-4265-95a3-44d607db0a7d@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "jpdphd" wrote:
> On Feb 12, 7:56 am, Bob Greenblatt wrote:
>> On 2/11/08 5:07 PM, in article ee88ac9...@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, "von
>>
>> cameron " <> wrote:
>>> great!
>>> is there a macro out their that replaces the solver or do i have to build
>>> it?
>>
>> Excel 2008 currently has no solver. If you are going to build a macro to do
>> this, it will have to be in Apple Script or XLM. Let us know when you are
>> done as many here are anxiously awaiting a solver for Excel 2008.
>>
>> --
>> Bob Greenblatt [MVP], Macintosh
>> bobgreenblattATmsnDOTcom
>
> 1. Why is it that Microsoft could get XLM into XL08 but not VBA? Don't
> they both require extensive reprogramming after Apple's switching to
> Intel processors?
It is not that Microsoft got XLM into Excel 2008, it is that it never left.
XLM has been with us in every version of Excel for both windows and
Macintosh since Excel 4 (if not before.) Since it is an internal part of
Excel and uses the same formula parser as worksheet formulas, it just came
along for the ride.
> 2. Why doesn't Microsoft put Solver into XLM format for all the hungry
> solver freaks out here? They have the code, the code works well. It
> would take a lot of time for someone to have to start from scratch.
> Does this make sense, or am I missing something???
>
I think you are missing a lot. The solver was written in a combination of
the local macro language (VBA and also XLM) but used extensive machine
language processing for performance. Yes, they have the code, but it has to
be recoded to be compatible with the current Intel systems. Microsoft just
did not have the resources to do this AND get the rest of Excel ready for
their shipment dates. While I have no idea what (or even if) Microsoft is
doing to get a solver back into Excel 2008, I am certain that they are sure
of the pain its lack is causing. As a result, my guess is that the problem
will be solved (no pun intended).
--
Bob Greenblatt [MVP], Macintosh
bobgreenblattATmsnDOTcom
open excel 2008, go to help menu> then send feedback.
explain why you need solver (& VBA). If you don't explain it it will
never get fixed. OR as an alternative ask them to port all VBA calls and
Macros over to something else such as applescript or some other
language that is universal, and *SAFE*.
The reason why there was so many calls for VBA demise, is because it so
easy to code something to do damage to files and Hard drives on PC's And
Mac's. as long ago as Word 6.0.1 a (same time frame as word 95 on PC)
it would recommended by security vendors such as Norton to turn off Word
Macros in Office, word and excel because of this security risk. Little
if anything had changed on the Mac side involving security. So a big
portion of Office users didn't use VBA and Macro's because of such
fears. I am one I haven used a word or Excel Macro ever. And if I ever
owned a PC or put windows on a Intel Mac I would have serious thoughts
about turning Macros on even on a PC. Its just too tempting for someone
that has evil intent to misuse.
Mohammed Iqbal wrote:
> Unbelievable! Solver along with other data analysis tools compromised about 80% of what I use Excel for. Very disappointed.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Unbelievable! Solver along with other data analysis tools compromised about
> 80% of what I use Excel for. Very disappointed.
Also, aside from the solver, many of the data analysis tools can be
written into the spreadsheet w/ formulas.
With my usual disclaimer that nobody should be using Excel to do data
analysis or any other "real" math,
you can get a number of stats tools, including anova and a histogram
generator, at the OATBRAN project, whose URL I sadly have forgotten.
(I've got a new and improved version of the histgram tool, available in
"beta test" to anyone who emails me to request it)
And general polynomial, exponential, and log curve fitting is easily
done using LINEST and LOGEST.
> Hi, I just cranked up the student edition of Office 2008 and can't find the solver in excel or in any documentation. Please tell me solver was included, I need it for classes!
I am also desperately searching for the SOLVER in Excel of MS Office2008. Any way to get it installed?
A casualty of killing VBA in Mac version of Office.
JE McGimpsey wrote:
> In article ,
> "Znieh Keleiban" wrote:
>
>> I am also desperately searching for the SOLVER in Excel of MS Office2008. Any
>> way to get it installed?
>
> Not currently - it just doesn't work with XL08.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Hi, I just cranked up the student edition of Office 2008 and can't find the
> > solver in excel or in any documentation. Please tell me solver was
> > included, I need it for classes!
>
> I am also desperately searching for the SOLVER in Excel of MS Office2008. Any
> way to get it installed?
>
> Heinz
As others noted, it's not there any more.
In the meantime, try Equato for indirect solving. It's a freeware
standalone app.
As far as I am aware the Excel Solver is not written by Microsoft. It is written by Frontline Systems, and is actually a "lite" version of their more powerful solvers.
So what I think may be the problem is that the code for Solver is not owned by Microsoft. Certainly on both Windows and Mac, the Solver code is entirely contained in an .xla addin and a shared library. No part of the Solver code resides in the Excel executable or Office libraries.
Therefore creating a Solver for Office 2008 will likely require cooperation from Frontline Systems, or a complete implementation of VBA. The latter has already been dismissed by the MacBU.
I am not trying to excuse MS at all on this, I am just trying to add some (hopefully) useful background. I am just as frustrated as everyone else about the functionality dropped when 'upgrading'. I have realized Excel 2008 is not going to be a work platform I can use anymore. Not only was I a heavy Solver user, I also frequently scripted the Solver with VBA! Rather than switch to Windows I am moving most of my code to Matlab.
I can not believe MS shipped this puppy without Solver. Reading these posts have just got my blood up. I work at a University with a bunch of Mac users wanting to know if they should upgrade and frankly I'm going to tell them to stay with Office 2004 UNTIL THIS IS FIXED. Sorry, this is inexcusable. Did you guys learn anything from the lawsuit in Europe? We're the reason the DOJ hasn't come down on you like a ton of bricks and made the Office group a separate product line from the OS line.
If this is what loyalty to MS buys, maybe I've got to look at open source a lot harder - hear that Mr. Bill?
I am in shock. This should have been printed on the outside of the box. I have built hundreds of models for clients that implement a piece of code using VBA. Now it is hosed up. AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH.
On 4/3/08 6:38 AM, in article ee88ac9.80@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
"Barry.Ezell@officeformac.com" wrote:
> I am in shock. This should have been printed on the outside of the box. I have
> built hundreds of models for clients that implement a piece of code using VBA.
> Now it is hosed up. AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH.
While not printed on the box, MS has made no secret, and indeed has widely
published that VBA would not be available with Office 2008. You need to
express your concerns via send feedback in the help menu.
--
Bob Greenblatt [MVP], Macintosh
bobgreenblattATmsnDOTcom
> In article ,
> "ACHP Phil Hammond - MCSA" wrote:
>
> > hear that Mr. Bill?
>
> Not likely - we're mostly just users here...
>
JE,
I did suspect that and figure I'm venting to the choir. BUT, I suspect folks up top lurk on the list too. If the MacBU team shipped Office 2008 minus the VBA support, minus the goodies in Excel like Solver, but with some "make pretty" additions to the interface then this starts ranking up there with Windows Millennium Edition (we need a new version for Christmas to increase the cash flow Windows). I could/can wait another year if a real upgrade came out to Office for the Mac. I live in both worlds, teach in both worlds and don't fear the ribbon anymore (though question it's existence at times). But I do like the Mac best - there I've said it.
Still for the younger ones posting here, I want to point out that Solver wasn't just a pretty toy thrown in the box to make special kids happy at Christmas. We remember the Lotus/Excel wars. We remember Back-Solver. That was Lotus's opening shot in data modeling and Microsoft had to answer back or lose a lot of business in the real money pit (aka Windows). A lot of business people and research people started taking Excel seriously after Solver showed up around here. The tide shifted about that point and for all of Office's other problems, Microsoft started to win that battle. And they already had the Mac pretty much to themselves. Thanks to us.
Yes, I'm that old friends, I remember Lotus, Harvard Graphics, CPM, Multiplan (my first Spreadsheet), VisiCalc, SuperCalc, Quatro-Pro.... Heck I've run Lotus 3 on VMS and Multiplan on a C64 (as well as CPM, DOS and Windows). And Excel 1.0 up on to now (sorry, no early release there).
But I also remember that Excel won it's top dog status because in part because it became a real tool when Solver showed up. And that it's now missing in Excel 2008 shows how far down the pole Microsoft rates the user needs of the Mac community have gone. Dust off the abacus friends. We just need simple math on our Macs I guess.
Or buy Parallels so you can run the REAL version of Excel on your Mac....
PH - MCSA, ACHS, CNA (love those letters)
PS
Mr. Greenblatt - Microsoft may have not hidden the fact VBA would be missing. But it's big difference in impact not having macros (which hurts too) and not having Analytical tools that have come with a program you rely on since version 3? maybe version 2? That's breaking a trust - and Microsoft was REAL quiet about that. Not even MacWorld noticed it in their review.
> But I also remember that Excel won it's top dog status because in part
> because it became a real tool when Solver showed up.
Sorry, but I can't agree with that. Solver was one of many interesting
but clunky things Excel threw into the "bucket."
If you've ever tried TKSolver, you'll understand why I say Excel's tool
is a cute toy and nothing more. Heck, you can't even relax more than
one target variable cell at a time.
> > Not likely - we're mostly just users here...
> >
> JE,
> I did suspect that and figure I'm venting to the choir. BUT, I suspect
> folks up top lurk on the list too.
Do you have any idea how many lists there are? Just on MS's server? I
know that this list is monitored over time, but it's by those down in
the trenches.
> But I also remember that Excel won it's top dog status because in part
> because it became a real tool when Solver showed up.
Hmm... Solver for XL was released at the same time as Excel 3.0 and
Windows 3.0. I'd have said that the non-solver aspects of XL, running
on the first version of Windows worth the verb, were far more important.
Solver is, and has been, a tool very important to a small minority of
users, and completely irrelevant to the vast majority - even more true
of MacXL users than WinXL.
As recently as a few years ago, I remember reading that a survey of
corporations found that more than 75% of XL sheets in use did not have
even a single formula.
> Mr. Greenblatt - Microsoft may have not hidden the fact VBA would be
> missing. But it's big difference in impact not having macros (which hurts
> too) and not having Analytical tools that have come with a program you
> rely on since version 3? maybe version 2? That's breaking a trust - and
> Microsoft was REAL quiet about that. Not even MacWorld noticed it in
> their review.
Hmm... MacBU announced the death of VBA (and therefore analytical tools
wizards and solver) in MacOffice at MacWorld 2007. It certainly got a
LOT of attention then.
JE McGimpsey wrote: -------------------------snip-------------------------
> Hmmm... MacBU announced the death of VBA (and therefore analytical tools
> wizards and solver) in MacOffice at MacWorld 2007. It certainly got a
> LOT of attention then.
Read both MacWorld and what was MacAddict (now renamed) they both
covered MacWorld2007 although coverage about Office2008 but if there was
mention of VBA missing or even items such as solver missing. I couldn't
find it.
Recent coverage in both only after it was released to the public, was
there any mention of these failings. Even then they were sort of glossed
over. Seemed like the reviews rather light weight, as if a Club was
being held over their head not to handle office with kid gloves. (My
impression) even the latest mention of the 12.0.1 upgraded was only 1/4
length of a column
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> Solver is, and has been, a tool very important to a small minority of
> users, and completely irrelevant to the vast majority - even more true
> of MacXL users than WinXL.
>
> As recently as a few years ago, I remember reading that a survey of
> corporations found that more than 75% of XL sheets in use did not have
> even a single formula.
Gee, you better not tell Microsoft business decision makers about
this, because the next 'upgrade' will be an application with tons of
boxes for text and numbers but no formulas!
Yes, Microsoft openly says that VBA is not included in XL08. But, most
people do not associate Solver (or wizards) with VBA. Thus, many
people buy XL08 and find out too late that Solver is gone.
* Why doesn't Microsoft put this information on page 1 of any website
that discusses XL08?
* Why, after all these months, hasn't Microsoft come up with a
replacement for Solver compatible with XL08? If it is that tough for
them to do, what hope is there for us to figure out ways of getting
AppleScript to do this?
> Gee, you better not tell Microsoft business decision makers about
> this, because the next 'upgrade' will be an application with tons of
> boxes for text and numbers but no formulas!
You don't think they know already? If more than a tiny fraction of their
customer base used VBA and Solver, I doubt they would have released
Office08.
Frankly, among *my* clients who use Solver, most would be better off not
doing so. The average corporate model I audit has so many logic and
numeric errors that Solver simply gives them a false sense of
accomplishment. Sadly, many of them are adaptations of B-school models
that were probably flawed to begin with.
That doesn't mean that SOME Solver apps aren't extraordinarily valuable,
and even flawed apps are sometimes better than nothing.
> Yes, Microsoft openly says that VBA is not included in XL08. But, most
> people do not associate Solver (or wizards) with VBA. Thus, many
> people buy XL08 and find out too late that Solver is gone.
>
> * Why doesn't Microsoft put this information on page 1 of any website
> that discusses XL08?
Hmm... do you know any other company that advertises the shortcomings of
its products (except pharmaceuticals)?
Especially when 90+% of their customers don't even know what Solver *is*.
> * Why, after all these months, hasn't Microsoft come up with a
> replacement for Solver compatible with XL08? If it is that tough for
> them to do, what hope is there for us to figure out ways of getting
> AppleScript to do this?
Don't know that anyone has suggested that AppleScript would be able to
replace Solver. Application-specific solutions are certainly possible,
but I can't imagine a general tool implemented in AS.
And yes, I suspect it *is* that hard to do. Given the enormous amount of
testing that has to be done for even trivial changes, months is hardly
an excessive amount of time, if, in fact, MacBU will be able to come up
with a replacement.
Okay J.E. maybe a fraction of YOUR clients don't use Solver. But a lot of my clients, PHd's and grad students doing research, use it. I'd say based on some recent wailing my best guess is that 50% know a lot about it - maybe more. They use it for animal behavior data, they use it for LP studies (Linear Programing), and they use it for basic growth curves. They know it and use it and teach it a lot.
Sure, yes, we have big name stats packages like SPSS, SAS, Stata, MiniTab, you name it. But everyone learns Excel at the start and that's where they start crunching numbers. Want to be concerned? I teach Solver to our 2 year business kids. That's YOUR next generation of clients.
So Solver is kind of important to use at the University. And in a College that is still 30% based on Macs, it's kinda important to my Mac users.
And since Solver didn't come from Microsoft anyway and the company that makes it freely admits on their website they can (and do) build to order in Java and .NET and C# - you think our friends in the MacBU could have spent a little money and bought a new version. A VBA free version.
Nice try J.E., I know you are trying to help but you didn't sell me. We got the shaft. Period. I'm backdating those who moved forward back to Office 2004 and waiting until MS (hopefully) sees the light.
Hey, if I got a car with a full stereo package plus DVD player and you got one identical but without a radio and we both paid the same price, who got the better deal?
Or did one of us just not need to listen to music while we drive?
Phil
> In article
> ,
> jpdphd wrote:
>
> > Gee, you better not tell Microsoft business decision makers about
> > this, because the next 'upgrade' will be an application with tons of
> > boxes for text and numbers but no formulas!
>
> You don't think they know already? If more than a tiny fraction of their
> customer base used VBA and Solver, I doubt they would have released
> Office08.
>
> Frankly, among *my* clients who use Solver, most would be better off not
> doing so. The average corporate model I audit has so many logic and
> numeric errors that Solver simply gives them a false sense of
> accomplishment. Sadly, many of them are adaptations of B-school models
> that were probably flawed to begin with.
>
> That doesn't mean that SOME Solver apps aren't extraordinarily valuable,
> and even flawed apps are sometimes better than nothing.
>
> > Yes, Microsoft openly says that VBA is not included in XL08. But, most
> > people do not associate Solver (or wizards) with VBA. Thus, many
> > people buy XL08 and find out too late that Solver is gone.
> >
> > * Why doesn't Microsoft put this information on page 1 of any website
> > that discusses XL08?
>
> Hmm... do you know any other company that advertises the shortcomings of
> its products (except pharmaceuticals)?
>
> Especially when 90+% of their customers don't even know what Solver *is*.
>
> > * Why, after all these months, hasn't Microsoft come up with a
> > replacement for Solver compatible with XL08? If it is that tough for
> > them to do, what hope is there for us to figure out ways of getting
> > AppleScript to do this?
>
> Don't know that anyone has suggested that AppleScript would be able to
> replace Solver. Application-specific solutions are certainly possible,
> but I can't imagine a general tool implemented in AS.
>
> And yes, I suspect it *is* that hard to do. Given the enormous amount of
> testing that has to be done for even trivial changes, months is hardly
> an excessive amount of time, if, in fact, MacBU will be able to come up
> with a replacement.
>
On Apr 7, 11:29 am, JE McGimpsey wrote:
> In article
> ,
>
> jpdphd wrote:
> > Gee, you better not tell Microsoft business decision makers about
> > this, because the next 'upgrade' will be an application with tons of
> > boxes for text and numbers but no formulas!
>
> You don't think they know already? If more than a tiny fraction of their
> customer base used VBA and Solver, I doubt they would have released
> Office08.
>
> Frankly, among *my* clients who use Solver, most would be better off not
> doing so. The average corporate model I audit has so many logic and
> numeric errors that Solver simply gives them a false sense of
> accomplishment. Sadly, many of them are adaptations of B-school models
> that were probably flawed to begin with.
>
> That doesn't mean that SOME Solver apps aren't extraordinarily valuable,
> and even flawed apps are sometimes better than nothing.
>
> > Yes, Microsoft openly says that VBA is not included in XL08. But, most
> > people do not associate Solver (or wizards) with VBA. Thus, many
> > people buy XL08 and find out too late that Solver is gone.
>
> > * Why doesn't Microsoft put this information on page 1 of any website
> > that discusses XL08?
>
> Hmm... do you know any other company that advertises the shortcomings of
> its products (except pharmaceuticals)?
>
> Especially when 90+% of their customers don't even know what Solver *is*.
>
> > * Why, after all these months, hasn't Microsoft come up with a
> > replacement for Solver compatible with XL08? If it is that tough for
> > them to do, what hope is there for us to figure out ways of getting
> > AppleScript to do this?
>
> Don't know that anyone has suggested that AppleScript would be able to
> replace Solver. Application-specific solutions are certainly possible,
> but I can't imagine a general tool implemented in AS.
>
> And yes, I suspect it *is* that hard to do. Given the enormous amount of
> testing that has to be done for even trivial changes, months is hardly
> an excessive amount of time, if, in fact, MacBU will be able to come up
> with a replacement.
Mr. McGimpsey,
I keep forgetting that one cannot infer my emotions when I write. Lord
knows that I am too old to learn the proper emoticons to use. So, I'll
try to be clearer.
a) When I said that you shouldn't tell Microsoft about many XL users
not using/needing functions, I was 100% sarcastic.
b) When I said that MS should note the absence of Solver in XL08 on
page 1 of their website, I was 50% sarcastic. Maybe not page 1 - but
somewhere! Currently, it is not mentioned at all. When you search the
Mactopia website for "solver", you get many dead ends and finally, a
link to ..... this forum!! When I shop for software, I DO look for
and expect to find things like system compatibility issues. The solver
issue is not (officially) addressed by MS. As I understand it,
disappointed buyers can request a refund, but wouldn't it be better PR
if clarity prevailed?
c) When I said that AppleScript could be used to perform the functions
of solver, I was 75% sarcastic. One of MS's solutions to coping with
the loss of VBA is "create a new macro using AppleScript". Solver uses
AppleScript. Ergo, use AppleScript to make a substitute for Solver.
Okay, I know there's more to Solver than that ... hence, the high
sarcasm index.
Now that I've confessed my sins of omission, I want to comment on how
you've changed the subject from coping with the loss of Solver to:
Solver isn't nearly all it's cracked up to be. Sorry, I don't buy that
at all (0% sarcastic). This falls into the generic GIGO caveat for
computing in general. Bad models and bad data lead to bad results
whether you are taking an average or solving for parameters using
least squares regression. If people are mis-using Solver, either they
were taught incorrectly, forgot what they were taught or weren't
taught at all.
Speaking of GIGO, I'd be interested in learning how MS determined the
degree to which XL users employ Solver. (10% sarcastic).
jpdphd wrote:
>> Solver is, and has been, a tool very important to a small minority of
>> users, and completely irrelevant to the vast majority - even more true
>> of MacXL users than WinXL.
>>
>> As recently as a few years ago, I remember reading that a survey of
>> corporations found that more than 75% of XL sheets in use did not have
>> even a single formula.
>
> Gee, you better not tell Microsoft business decision makers about
> this, because the next 'upgrade' will be an application with tons of
> boxes for text and numbers but no formulas!
>
> Yes, Microsoft openly says that VBA is not included in XL08. But, most
> people do not associate Solver (or wizards) with VBA. Thus, many
> people buy XL08 and find out too late that Solver is gone.
>
> * Why doesn't Microsoft put this information on page 1 of any website
> that discusses XL08?
>
> * Why, after all these months, hasn't Microsoft come up with a
> replacement for Solver compatible with XL08? If it is that tough for
> them to do, what hope is there for us to figure out ways of getting
> AppleScript to do this?
>
Hi,
One of the key features of Visual Basic for Applications is not only the
programming language, but the collection of objects and methods that go
with it.
An extensibility feature of VBA is the ability to create "add-ins" which
are collections of VBA code that run natively as part of the entire
Office suite. There's also the concept of UserForms which is also now
unavailable.
All this is gone now. Applescript can only manipulate objects and
execute commands externally from the applications. It's an older concept
called "executable" in old Basic terminology.
In other words, Applescript is not a substitute for VBA. It can't be
made into an add-in, so anything at all like solver is just not possible.
Mac office users seeking programmability features are faced with
choosing from among a variety of less than ideal options:
* Run office for Windows in a virtual environment
* Stick with Office 2004
* Migrate to OpenOffice 2.4 and live with a very limited VBA environment
* Live with Applescript's limited scripting capabilities and complete
lack of cross-platform abilities
I don't like this situation and am perplexed that Microsoft is taking
the risk of losing key parts of their customer base as a consequence of
their VBA decision.
> Speaking of GIGO, I'd be interested in learning how MS determined the
> degree to which XL users employ Solver. (10% sarcastic).
>
> 100% Sincerely,
> Jim Dilger
>
Hi Jim,
Microsoft has a variety of ways to determine how they think their
customers are using their products.
In Windows office theire's an option to join the usability program. What
that does is note which menu items and toolbar icons are clicked on, and
it reports the quantity back to Microsoft.
They do usability studies with volunteers and key customers and simply
watch people as they do their work and note what people do as they use
the products.
Microsoft asks the MVPs for their opinions. Sometimes the MVPs are very
influential (Office 2004). Sometimes MVPs are not very influential at
all (Office 2008). Next week the MVPs will be meeting with Microsoft's
Mac Business unit. It will be a difficult summit. http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/gp/MVPsummit
The Mac Business Unit has some people who read newsgroup postings,
par
