I was running Excel 2008 on Macbook Pro with Leopard 10.5.1. When I tried to add Y error bars on my column chart, I found that there is no way to customize the error bars. The "custom" feature in Excel 2004 (Mac) and 2007 (PC) is somehow missing in Office 2008.
> I was running Excel 2008 on Macbook Pro with Leopard 10.5.1. When I tried to
> add Y error bars on my column chart, I found that there is no way to
> customize the error bars. The "custom" feature in Excel 2004 (Mac) and 2007
> (PC) is somehow missing in Office 2008.
Any suggestion?
No suggestions - the feature is missing in XL08.
MacBU is aware of this, of course, and has it on the list to get fixed.
Whether, and if so, when, it gets fixed obviously depends on (a) how
difficult it is to implement, and (2) competing priorities.
> Data Analysis is missing can somebody point me out on where to download the
> add-ins
First, you can't download the Data Analysis Tools in the Analysis
Toolpak Add-in (ATP) - it comes on your Office install CD (for versions
other than XL08).
Second, where it is on your CD depends on which version of XL you're
talking about...
I cannot believe that Excel 2008 no longer supports VB macros. Like them or not they were essential to automating serious spreadsheets. I and I suspect many other serious users will never upgrade until support for VB macros is reinstated. Do you really expect me to rewrite all my spreadsheets using Apple's scripting??
I sympathize with your position, but it should come as no great shock at
this point. The demise of VBA in Mac Office has been widely publicized since
the first rumors of 2008 started to emerge over a year ago and one of the
first *official* announcements to come from MS on the new version:-)
As to what *we* "really expect", well, we don't expect you to do anything
other than what you consider right for your needs. Those participating here
do not work for MS, nor do we have much - if anything - to say about what
the company does/does not choose to do.
You might consider voicing your opinion where it will do more good: Excel
Help> Send Feedback.
--
Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
wrote in message news:ee88c11.1@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw...
>I cannot believe that Excel 2008 no longer supports VB macros. Like them or
>not they were essential to automating serious spreadsheets. I and I suspect
>many other serious users will never upgrade until support for VB macros is
>reinstated. Do you really expect me to rewrite all my spreadsheets using
>Apple's scripting??
> I cannot believe that Excel 2008 no longer supports VB macros. Like them or
> not they were essential to automating serious spreadsheets. I and I suspect
> many other serious users will never upgrade until support for VB macros is
> reinstated.
That's certainly one option. Rewriting macros in XL4M, Real Basic or
AppleScript is another option for a subset of users.
I'll certainly use both XL04 and XL08 for the forseeable future.
> Do you really expect me to rewrite all my spreadsheets using Apple's
> scripting??
Who are you referring to? Everyone who posts here is a user. Use
Help/Send Feedback to tell MS.
However, MacBU is acutely aware of the pain point that dropping VBA has
caused. They made a business decision based on market and resources, and
decided that shipping Office 08 without VBA was a better option than
shipping Office 2010 with VBA.
Not what I wanted either, but I understand the decision.
Saving multiple sheets (up to 100) in pdf format did not work in Excel 2004.
NeoOffice has a neat function to "Export to pdf". Not only will it export multiple sheets, it will also label each page in pdf with the tab name in each sheet in excel.
We use pc Office 2003 to build excel pivot charts and then copy them into powerpoint presentations. We can then "drill down" into the underlying pivot table if needed, during the powerpoint. Wondering if MacOffice 2008 has this capability?
> We use pc Office 2003 to build excel pivot charts and then copy them into
> powerpoint presentations. We can then "drill down" into the underlying pivot
> table if needed, during the powerpoint. Wondering if MacOffice 2008 has
> this capability?
> Saving multiple sheets (up to 100) in pdf format did not work in Excel 2004.
>
NeoOffice has a neat function to "Export to pdf". Not only will it
> export multiple sheets, it will also label each page in pdf with the tab name
> in each sheet in excel.
Is this function in Excel 2008?
Saving a multiple sheet workbook to pdf works in XL08, producing a
multiple page PDF that corresponds to what it would look like printed
out.
The sheet name is displayed in each page by setting the header/footer to
display the sheet name (View/Headers and Footers/Customize Footer/Insert
Sheet Name)
I don't have access to my machine with NeoOffice right now - do you mean
that NeoOffice "label(s) each page in pdf with the tab name in each
sheet in excel" (you mean NeoOffice?) even if a printed version
wouldn't? If so, that would be problem for me.
On Jan 17, 3:36 pm, "Ronald Foust" <> wrote:
> Saving multiple sheets (up to 100) in pdf format did not work in Excel 2004.
> NeoOffice has a neat function to "Export to pdf". Not only will it export multiple sheets, it will also label each page in pdf with the tab name in each sheet in excel.
> Is this function in Excel 2008?
Maybe I'm missing something here, but OS X will let you convert any
document in any application to PDFs. As part of the process you can
even automatically email or fax the resulting PDFs.
Just open your 100 page workbook and select Print from the File menu.
The PDF option is at the bottom on the left of the Print menu. Just be
sure to select the Workbook option if you want to convert all pages.
Just installed Office 2008 and came to use Excel. Can't find the following that were in 2004, can any one help?
1. Print Preview command button
2. Page break view
3. How to create a chart with two vertical axes
Also as an observation the Adobe Acrobat "create pdf" tool bar does not do anything now. Have to use print and save as pdf. Time consuming!
"I found that there is no way to customize the error bars."
Me Too.
WHAT A DISAPPOINTMENT. Oh, and another huge disappointment is the inability to use EndNote with Word 08. If you do research, you may want to consider waiting to upgrade until they fix some of these seemingly regressive changes.
I wanted to make an ordinary line chart. As typically I want to have the dates (years) to which my values belong on the horizontal (category) axis. In Excel 2004 this could be done in the data editor for the chart. In the tab "Series" data could be selected for the category axis labels. In Excel 2008 the data editor for charts is modified, the two tabs are merged, but the option to select data as labels for the category axis is missing. Without this option I cannot create the most ordinary diagrame with Excel 2008, just when I started liking it.
If your using 2008 there actually is in the Save as Menu (converters) at
least on Word and I suspect on Excel. a choice to save as PDF.
In word I found the pleasant surprise, that unlike all previous versions
to 2004 if for some reason you had a page break inserted, The PDF
would start over as a new Job. In 2008 its interpreted as it should be
and its lightning fast as well (OSX.4.11)
Hamad Aljudai wrote:
> Ronald,
>
> I can export to PDF using the Print function. Try going to "Print".
> You'll see a PDF button there. Click Save As and you're done.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm looking for the best address book option to store my addresses, notes etc. I'm about to switch to Excel. Is this a good tool for that?
I need to be able to print labels with different addresses on each and be able to do multiply search.
> I'm looking for the best address book option to store my addresses, notes
> etc. I'm about to switch to Excel. Is this a good tool for that?
> I need to be able to print labels with different addresses on each and
> be able to do multiply search.
If you don't wish to use Entourage, XL is a capable tool.
Labels should be printed from Word, using the Label wizard, and grabbing
the data from the XL sheet.
> Just installed Office 2008 and came to use Excel. Can't find the following
> that were in 2004, can any one help?
> 1. Print Preview command button
Doesn't exist - all print functions are performed by the OS, including
print preview.
> 2. Page break view
Also doesn't exist any longer - Page Layout view accomplishes most of
the same features. I suspect that their research mirrors the Win side in
that only a small minority of users understood and used Page Break view.
> 3. How to create a chart with two vertical axes
That appears to be either a bug or feature that was removed. Send
feedback via Help/Send Feedback...
>
Also as an
> observation the Adobe Acrobat "create pdf" tool bar does not do anything now.
> Have to use print and save as pdf. Time consuming!
*No* add-ins work any more - that's a consequence of not including VBA
this release.
thanks for the answers on 1 & 2 plus the Adobe add-in. I've further explored the twin axis issue and have found that by double clicking on a series in a chart that it brings up the "Format Data Series" window where you can click on "Axis" and choose to plot the series on a secondary axis. This then shows up on the Formatting Palette under "Chart Options" where you can deselect and reselect it.
Thanks a lot. It works. Is there a way I could do a search in XL and get more then one results? Let's say I'm looking for all the employees of a company. Maybe I should use some kind of filtering?
> Thanks a lot. It works. Is there a way I could do a search in XL and get more
> then one results? Let's say I'm looking for all the employees of a company.
> Maybe I should use some kind of filtering?
If your data is in columns, you can use Data/Filter/Autofilter. Choose
the company name from the company filter dropdown
Quoting from "entropysounds@hotmail.com" , in article ee88c11.13@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, on [DATE:
"I found that there is no way to customize the error bars."
Me Too.
WHAT A DISAPPOINTMENT. Oh, and another huge disappointment is the inability
to use EndNote with Word 08. If you do research, you may want to consider
waiting to upgrade until they fix some of these seemingly regressive changes.
John is referring to a new feature in Office 2008. You no longer have to use
the Print dialog box. Now in the File > Save As dialog box you can choose
PDF as a file type.
-Jim
Quoting from "cwhaley" , in article
3dad59cd-c76e-47d4-a04d-7904ee023457@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com, on [DATE:
> On Jan 17, 3:36 pm, "Ronald Foust" <> wrote:
>> Saving multiple sheets (up to 100) in pdf format did not work in Excel 2004.
>> NeoOffice has a neat function to "Export to pdf". Not only will it export
>> multiple sheets, it will also label each page in pdf with the tab name in
>> each sheet in excel.
>> Is this function in Excel 2008?
>
> Maybe I'm missing something here, but OS X will let you convert any
> document in any application to PDFs. As part of the process you can
> even automatically email or fax the resulting PDFs.
>
> Just open your 100 page workbook and select Print from the File menu.
> The PDF option is at the bottom on the left of the Print menu. Just be
> sure to select the Workbook option if you want to convert all pages.
As John pointed out, Mac versions of Excel don’t support pivot charts. The makers of the Mac version of office do not get much feedback indicating this is a feature that would be used much on the Mac.
I’ve seen postings about the lack of pivot charts several times over the years, but it’s important for those who want this functionality to make a point of letting Microsoft know.
Thanks.
-Jim
Quoting from "ASUlab" , in article ee88c11.4@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, on [DATE:
We use pc Office 2003 to build excel pivot charts and then copy them into
powerpoint presentations. We can then "drill down" into the underlying
pivot table if needed, during the powerpoint. Wondering if MacOffice
2008 has this capability?
Does Microsoft? I don’t speak for Microsoft, but my conclusion is, “yes.”
If you don’t think AppleScript is an acceptable substitute for VBA then please let Microsoft know (please be civil). Explain to Microsoft that even though you are a Mac user that you use VBA and how the lack of VBA affects your ability to use Office. I think in Microsoft’s view most Mac users are “consumers” not “developers” and that we can get by without VBA for the most part.
Quoting from "Richard Jones" <>, in article ee88c11.1@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, on [DATE:
I cannot believe that Excel 2008 no longer supports VB macros. Like them
or not they were essential to automating serious spreadsheets. I and I
suspect many other serious users will never upgrade until support for
VB macros is reinstated. Do you really expect me to rewrite all my spreadsheets
using Apple's scripting??
It's very easy to create a chart with two vertical axes - and it looks cool. Just make a chart with two or more series of data. The select the series (one by the time), double click to format it and choose "Axis". There you can select to use the primary (lefthandside) or secondary (righthandside) axis for that particular series. The second axis then appears of course automatically and can be formatted as appropriate.
Hope that helps...
And hopefully anybody here to help me assigning data as labels for the horizontal axis!
I've investigated this and agree that it's a pain, however I have a work around for you (for dates).
1. Enter the data column with years as a Date format. This will require entering in dates ending in the year you want.
2. Format the data column as a custom format of "yyyy" to display only the year.
3. Select the two columns you want and plot the chart. Excel appears to recognise dates and uses it for the horizontal axis labels/ intervals.
Thanks a lot Bob. I just tried it and it worked. However it is a lot of work to change the years to dates, reajust the dates. In Numbers 08, it works similiar, however you have to convert the label data to "text" and then it is automatically taken as labels.
I've been trying to get into Data Analysis and Charts and Lists etc., and they won't open. A message comes up saying: 'charts' cannot be accessed. The file may be read-only, or you may be trying to access a read-only location. Or, the server the document is stored on may not be responding.
Can somebody please tell me how to combat this problem?
I've been trying to get into Data Analysis and Charts and Lists etc., and they won't open. A message comes up saying: 'charts' cannot be accessed. The file may be read-only, or you may be trying to access a read-only location. Or, the server the document is stored on may not be responding.
Can somebody please tell me how to combat this problem?
> I've been trying to get into Data Analysis and Charts and Lists etc., and
> they won't open. A message comes up saying: 'charts' cannot be accessed. The
> file may be read-only, or you may be trying to access a read-only location.
> Or, the server the document is stored on may not be responding.
Can
> somebody please tell me how to combat this problem?
What version and update of XL and Mac OS X?
Data Analysis requires you to load the Analysis Toolpak Add-in for XL
versions prior to XL08. The ATP won't run under XL08, since it doesn't
run VBA. There are workarounds using XL functions here:
thanks for the answers on 1 & 2 plus the Adobe add-in.
> I've further explored the twin axis issue and have found that by double
> clicking on a series in a chart that it brings up the "Format Data Series"
> window where you can click on "Axis" and choose to plot the series on a
> secondary axis. This then shows up on the Formatting Palette under "Chart
> Options" where you can deselect and reselect it.
Bob
Thanks for the response - the "bug" I was referring to was regarding the
Secondary Axis button on the Formatting Palette - which it seems to me
should be able to do the same thing. I'll have to think through that
some more...
Looking forward eagerly to spreadsheets with more speed and more real estate, I guess I just didn't imagine Microsoft would compromise something as long-standing and functional as macros.
So, I was stunned to hear that macros cannot be created in Excel 2008 for the Mac. Not that Visual Basic was ever as understandable as the old macros in Excel, but at least it was something.
Then I learned that there is no Solver function and no Data Analysis pak in Excel 2008. Surely this can’t be true. Why bother with the new version if you are the denied features you have now? No Solver. No Data Analysis. No macros. It makes no sense.
I am profoundly disappointed. What is the market share is required to provide fully featured software for Mac users? 10%? 15%? Never?
Market penetration of the Apple computers on the whole is one thing, but the perception is that Mac users are “consumers” and “creative types” who really don’t use or have much use for VBA or any products created using VBA.
VBA is often considered something for “developers” and “business” people, not us Mac users.
So if you want VBA support you’ll have to explain to Microsoft why a “consumer” or “creative” person would ever want to use it. In the past, VBA usage on the Mac has been minimal. You limit your use of spreadsheets to tables of information for your holiday card list, right? Maybe do your homework assignment? Surely you have no interested beyond that, do you? You would never make or use an add-in, right?
-Jim
Quoting from "JJZ@officeformac.com" , in article ee88c11.34@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, on [DATE:
Looking forward eagerly to spreadsheets with more speed and more real
estate, I guess I just didn't imagine Microsoft would compromise something
as long-standing and functional as macros.
So, I was stunned to hear that macros cannot be created in Excel 2008
for the Mac. Not that Visual Basic was ever as understandable as the old
macros in Excel, but at least it was something.
Then I learned that there is no Solver function and no Data Analysis pak
in Excel 2008. Surely this can’t be true. Why bother with the new
version if you are the denied features you have now? No Solver. No Data
Analysis. No macros. It makes no sense.
I am profoundly disappointed. What is the market share is required to
provide fully featured software for Mac users? 10%? 15%? Never?
> What is the market share is required to provide fully featured software for
> Mac users? 10%? 15%? Never?
Overall market share doesn't mean very much. There are a number of
markets for Office on Macs, all with different user profiles: Home,
small business, academic, research, enterprise, etc.
Not all Macs are even being bought to run Mac OS. A significant fraction
of Macs sold will never have Office installed on them.
Features will be evaluated based upon what each of those segments say
they need, upon how those needs fit relative to the needs of other
segments, upon the relative size of the segments, upon the technical
ease or difficulty of implementing solutions for those needs, and upon
the resources available to implement those solutions.
In the case of VBA (which took out Solver and the ATP as collateral
damage), the biggest factor was probably NOT market need. Rather, the
limiting factor was the resources available to rewrite and update the
VBA compiler, editor and run-time environment.
Even if a significant number of Mac developers had suddenly been
available (and that's not a given - MacBU typically has had fairly
substantial difficulty finding qualified coders), the magnitude of the
job made it unlikely to be completed in a reasonable time for this
release.
Remember that, while planning for Office 2008 started in 2004 (with
long-term planning beginning even earlier), Apple made the job much
bigger in June 2005, when they announced the Intel-based Macs. Not only
did that add a significant amount of unanticipated work to ensure that
Office 2004 ran in Rosetta, but also that *everything* in Office 2008
had to be moved from its CodeWarrior base to XCode in order to run
natively on the Intel chipset. That's millions of lines of code for each
of the major apps and Office core.
Obviously for those that need VBA/Solver/ATP, Office 2008 may not be
worth getting (though if one likes Office08's Word, PPT & Entourage
apps, one can certainly run XL04 along with them). But those folks -
which include me: I'm out of a job for most of my major clients - aren't
*any* worse off than they'd have been if the release of Office 2008 had
been delayed until 201x - they'd still either be using Office 2004, or
they'd find a different solution.
That would mean *no* sales, even to those that don't need VBA (a
substantial part of the market never uses XL at all), for that
additional time. For a division that is required to make a profit,
that's a bad option.
All that said, I think that, even with the market research that they do,
MacBU underestimated the users of Solver and the ATP. To reinforce that
perception, and probably help Marketing and Product Development allocate
resources, it's imperative that everyone who's unhappy that VBA was not
included submits Feedback via Help/Send Feedback...
MacOffice may weather this version without VBA - and certainly MS as a
whole would like to kill VBA, though it's fighting back mightily. But my
guess is that if it doesn't have cross-platform automation capability by
*next* version, it will permanently become a hobby suite.
I would like to echo the need for a fully functioning Excel 2008 program for Mac's (Defined as Excel 2004 functions plus new ones) . There are many business users of Office who are forced to use PC's at work and have Mac's at home. Inter-compatibility of functions and performance between the two platforms is critical for these users. To label Mac users as "creative" types and PC users as non "creative" types is foolhardy at best. I agree with JE Gimpsey that the probable cause for the lack of VBA etc is due to a business decision to release Office 2008 sooner rather than later. Other omissions or bugs such as twin axes charting (which is more cumbersome than before) and being able to easily select data as labels should be fixes Microsoft must implement.
I've kept Office 2004 installed in addition to installing 2008 (or not installing Office 2008) and would recommend that others do the same until Microsoft issue appropriate updates that result in a program that is comparable on functions and ease of use to Excel 2004.
I tried to do applescript in Excel, and to begin my effort looked at the help. Seaching "applescript" I was taken to "Known Issues in Office 2008." There I found 3 choices, one of which is "Automator Workflows and Applescripts."
When I selected this one, the terse 'help' said only "Running Automator workflows and AppleScripts from the Office script menu is not currently supported under Mac OS X v10.5 (Leopard)."
Do you know any way I can do Applescript in Excel, since that is apparently my only option?
> I tried to do applescript in Excel, and to begin my effort looked at the
> help. Seaching "applescript" I was taken to "Known Issues in Office 2008."
> There I found 3 choices, one of which is "Automator Workflows and
> Applescripts."
>
> When I selected this one, the terse 'help' said only "Running Automator
> workflows and AppleScripts from the Office script menu is not currently
> supported under Mac OS X v10.5 (Leopard)."
I can run Applescripts from the XL Applescript menu. Automator actions
still don't work from the script menu under 10.5.1.
> Do you know any way I can do Applescript in Excel, since that is apparently
> my only option?
Well, the first time that pops up in a Search on MacTopia is
Moving from Microsoft Office VBA to AppleScript:
MacTech's Guide to Making the Transition (from which
the migration guide in the first item above was developed): http://www.mactech.com/vba-transition-guide/
Excel 2004 AppleScript Reference (PDF download - not
XL08, but generally helpful): http://tinyurl.com/2fljga
I myself don't run a business. But there are a lot of people running
businesses on Mac. What? Does MS believe creative types, don't have the
smarts to run a business?
Jim Gordon MVP wrote:
> Hi JJ
>
> Market penetration of the Apple computers on the whole is one thing, but
> the perception is that Mac users are “consumers” and “creative types”
> who really don’t use or have much use for VBA or any products created
> using VBA.
>
> VBA is often considered something for “developers” and “business”
> people, not us Mac users.
>
> So if you want VBA support you’ll have to explain to Microsoft why a
> “consumer” or “creative” person would ever want to use it. In the past,
> VBA usage on the Mac has been minimal. You limit your use of
> spreadsheets to tables of information for your holiday card list, right?
> Maybe do your homework assignment? Surely you have no interested beyond
> that, do you? You would never make or use an add-in, right?
>
> -Jim
>
> Quoting from "JJZ@officeformac.com" , in article
> ee88c11.34@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, on [DATE:
>
> Looking forward eagerly to spreadsheets with more speed and more
> real estate, I guess I just didn't imagine Microsoft would
> compromise something as long-standing and functional as macros.
>
> So, I was stunned to hear that macros cannot be created in Excel
> 2008 for the Mac. Not that Visual Basic was ever as understandable
> as the old macros in Excel, but at least it was something.
>
> Then I learned that there is no Solver function and no Data Analysis
> pak in Excel 2008. Surely this can’t be true. Why bother with the
> new version if you are the denied features you have now? No Solver.
> No Data Analysis. No macros. It makes no sense.
>
> I am profoundly disappointed. What is the market share is required
> to provide fully featured software for Mac users? 10%? 15%? Never?
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Gordon
> Mac MVP
>
> MVPs are not Microsoft Employees
> MVP info http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's the big-picture mentality of market analysis goofoos. Apple's market is
not business, so how come there are Mac users trying to use their computers
for business? Don't they know they we not supposed to want to do that?
We're supposed to be making home movies, not home businesses. It's the same
old bullcrap we've been putting up with for years put into action.
-Jim
Quoting from "Phillip Jones" , in article
u#b1mz4XIHA.5180@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl, on [DATE:
> I myself don't run a business. But there are a lot of people running
> businesses on Mac. What? Does MS believe creative types, don't have the
> smarts to run a business?
>
> Jim Gordon MVP wrote:
>> Hi JJ
>>
>> Market penetration of the Apple computers on the whole is one thing, but
>> the perception is that Mac users are ³consumers² and ³creative types²
>> who really don¹t use or have much use for VBA or any products created
>> using VBA.
>>
>> VBA is often considered something for ³developers² and ³business²
>> people, not us Mac users.
>>
>> So if you want VBA support you¹ll have to explain to Microsoft why a
>> ³consumer² or ³creative² person would ever want to use it. In the past,
>> VBA usage on the Mac has been minimal. You limit your use of
>> spreadsheets to tables of information for your holiday card list, right?
>> Maybe do your homework assignment? Surely you have no interested beyond
>> that, do you? You would never make or use an add-in, right?
>>
>> -Jim
>>
>> Quoting from "JJZ@officeformac.com" , in article
>> ee88c11.34@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, on [DATE:
>>
>> Looking forward eagerly to spreadsheets with more speed and more
>> real estate, I guess I just didn't imagine Microsoft would
>> compromise something as long-standing and functional as macros.
>>
>> So, I was stunned to hear that macros cannot be created in Excel
>> 2008 for the Mac. Not that Visual Basic was ever as understandable
>> as the old macros in Excel, but at least it was something.
>>
>> Then I learned that there is no Solver function and no Data Analysis
>> pak in Excel 2008. Surely this can¹t be true. Why bother with the
>> new version if you are the denied features you have now? No Solver.
>> No Data Analysis. No macros. It makes no sense.
>>
>> I am profoundly disappointed. What is the market share is required
>> to provide fully featured software for Mac users? 10%? 15%? Never?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jim Gordon
>> Mac MVP
>>
>> MVPs are not Microsoft Employees
>> MVP info http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
I've noticed that when saving Excel 2008 files in the .xlsx format the file sizes is much bigger. e.g. A simple file created in 2008 and saved as .xlsx format is 44K while the same file saved as .xls format is only 24K.
Can anyone offer an explanation please as it seems I will be missing a lot more memory in the future!
I don't believe it is possible any more to rotate 3D plots by grabbing the corners. This is a very annoying omission & not documented anywhere as far as I can see. Surely a new full price version of Office should contain as least as many features as the previous one?
That ignores the debacle over Solver and the other analysis tools. MS not being able to replicate these straightfoward numerical tools in compiled code is simply unbelieveable.
I've found the best solution to my Excel 2008 issues. I've removed the program, taken it back for a refund and have started back up with my office 2004. I now have customizable error bars, macros and all the stuff I liked....
"Check out the Ordering section of the Size, Rotation and Ordering pane
of the Formatting Palette.
(You can find this in XL08 Help, searching for "align objects".)"
In regards to this reply, in Excel 2008 the ordering section is no longer in the formatting palette. In the help it says that's where it is but it's not there.
Hahaha. Tell this to the other 10% of students in my MBA program who are also working on Macs.
Re: Missing Features in Excel 2008!? Print This Reply
It's the big-picture mentality of market analysis goofoos. Apple's market is
not business, so how come there are Mac users trying to use their computers
for business? Don't they know they we not supposed to want to do that?
We're supposed to be making home movies, not home businesses. It's the same
old bullcrap we've been putting up with for years put into action.
-Jim
Quoting from "Phillip Jones" , in article
u#b1mz4XIHA.5180@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl, on [DATE:
I myself don't run a business. But there are a lot of people running businesses
on Mac. What? Does MS believe creative types, don't have the smarts to
run a business?
Jim Gordon MVP wrote: > Hi JJ > > Market penetration of the Apple computers
on the whole is one thing, but > the perception is that Mac users are
³consumers² and ³creative types² > who really don¹t use or have much use
for VBA or any products created > using VBA. > > VBA is often considered
something for ³developers² and ³business² > people, not us Mac users.
> > So if you want VBA support you¹ll have to explain to Microsoft why
a > ³consumer² or ³creative² person would ever want to use it. In the
past, > VBA usage on the Mac has been minimal. You limit your use of >
spreadsheets to tables of information for your holiday card list, right?
> Maybe do your homework assignment? Surely you have no interested beyond
> that, do you? You would never make or use an add-in, right? > > -Jim
> > Quoting from "JJZ@officeformac.com" , in article > ee88c11.34@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
on [DATE: > > Looking forward eagerly to spreadsheets with more speed
and more > real estate, I guess I just didn't imagine Microsoft would
> compromise something as long-standing and functional as macros. > >
So, I was stunned to hear that macros cannot be created in Excel > 2008
for the Mac. Not that Visual Basic was ever as understandable > as the
old macros in Excel, but at least it was something. > > Then I learned
that there is no Solver function and no Data Analysis > pak in Excel 2008.
Surely this can¹t be true. Why bother with the > new version if you are
the denied features you have now? No Solver. > No Data Analysis. No macros.
It makes no sense. > > I am profoundly disappointed. What is the market
share is required > to provide fully featured software for Mac users?
10%? 15%? Never? > > > > -- > Jim Gordon > Mac MVP > > MVPs are not Microsoft
Employees > MVP info http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
This is absolutely ridicilous, I cannot believe that Excel 2008 is missing all these features. I am very very very very very disappointed. It makes my life so much harder. I don't understand why they would make the mac version and pc version different, when they are both Excel 2008. Even really simple things you can't change on the mac version. This is SUCH a nuisance. So frustrated right now!
Quoting from "Ardy@officeformac.com" , in article ee88c11.52@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, on [DATE:
This is absolutely ridicilous, I cannot believe that Excel 2008 is missing
all these features. I am very very very very very disappointed. It makes
my life so much harder. I don't understand why they would make the mac
version and pc version different, when they are both Excel 2008. Even
really simple things you can't change on the mac version. This is SUCH
a nuisance. So frustrated right now!
At least Excel 2004 has the features and runs just fine in Tiger and Leopard.
Quoting from "Ardy@officeformac.com" , in article
ee88c11.52@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw
> they are both Excel 2008
No, they're *not*... Excel on the PC is *2007*.
The Win version & the Mac version have not been _identical_ for a long, long
time - It's just that the disparity has grown [significantly] greater with
the most recent releases.
so What this mean for me who JUST bought a mac and assumed that the excel on mac would be just the same.. i guess it means I made a bad assumption that Apple was as good as PC.. but its not
Regrettably that seems to be the case. If you read through the newsgroups
you'll find that you are certainly not alone - although that probably
doesn't help much. And, depending on your specific requirements, the
differences are more significant for some users than for others. Despite the
fact that some of the major distinctions have been expected for some time -
such as the lack of support for VBA - I don't believe most users were aware
of the extent to which they would be affected.
Don't hesitate to use Help> Send Feedback to voice your dissatisfaction
directly to MS. We'd all like to think that Office 2008 is still a "work in
progress" & that there are brighter days around the bend, but what - if
anything - will be done to close the gap is just guesswork.
I'd also suggest that you not generalize about *Apple* vs. PC strictly on
the basis of what *MS Excel* has to offer [or not] on the two platforms.
Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
On 2/16/08 11:59 AM, in article ee88c11.55@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, "Ardy" wrote:
> so What this mean for me who JUST bought a mac and assumed that the excel on
> mac would be just the same.. i guess it means I made a bad assumption that
> Apple was as good as PC.. but its not
Actually I will choose to generalize Apple vs. PC because Apple advertises the macbook pro as a laptop that has all the functionality of the PC. one example of this type of advertising are the Mac vs. PC commercials.
The fact is when it comes to Word Processing, Excel (not to mention VBA) PC is much superior to MAC.. and for MOST AVERAGE COMPUTER USERS those two thing are one the Major uses they get out of their computer..
For what it might be worth --- MacTech magazine, www.mactech.com , has in its April 2007 issue a 150-page guide "Moving from Microsoft Office VBA to AppleScript" Pages 118 - 163 deal with Excel. Others cover the other Office components.
I can not vouch for the contents as I have yet to need VBA conversions.
Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the ads from Apple are
addressing the Macintosh operating system & Macintosh hardware produced by
Apple compared to the Window operating system, *not* the caliber of software
applications offered by any one developer. Those ads certainly don't even
mention Microsoft Office, let alone make any claims about the equivalency of
that particular suite of products.
IOW: The arguable assertion that MS provides a less capable version of
something for one platform than it does for another *doesn't* speak to the
caliber of the platform itself.
Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
On 2/16/08 12:57 PM, in article ee88c11.57@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
"Ardy@officeformac.com" wrote:
> Actually I will choose to generalize Apple vs. PC because Apple advertises the
> macbook pro as a laptop that has all the functionality of the PC. one example
> of this type of advertising are the Mac vs. PC commercials.
>
> The fact is when it comes to Word Processing, Excel (not to mention VBA) PC is
> much superior to MAC.. and for MOST MOST MOST people those two thing are one
> the Major uses they get out of their computer..
>
> So yes Bob, I can generalize.
ok first of all... the commercials talk about a wide variety of aspects of both not just "the caliber of the platform." The fact is that they are aimed at the average computer user.
Given that, you cannot argue against the fact that the average computer user uses Office on a regular basis. So I'm sitting here not being able to do half of the shit I could do on my last computer which was a PC, How are you going to tell me that my Toshiba isn't better than MacBook Pro?! When at the end of they day I got more FUNCTIONALITY out of it.
It all comes back to the fact that Microsoft's monopoly over the market creates software issues for Mac that inevitably make it the less functional platform. No matter how powerful or better the platform is.. When you can't do simple things on it.. It defeats the purpose.
Quoting from "Ardy" , in article ee88c11.55@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
on [DATE:
> so What this mean for me who JUST bought a mac and assumed that the excel on
> mac would be just the same.. i guess it means I made a bad assumption that
> Apple was as good as PC.. but its not
I was very concerned that people would get this impression from Microsoft's
actions. I had fears that if the premier software sold for the Mac (which is
Microsoft Office) were substandard that it would negatively affect not only
Microsoft's sales, but Apple's sales as well. I now see that my fears were
not unjustified.
The Mac is fine. Microsoft drew conclusions about what the users of Mac
office want and I think they missed the boat.
Please use this URL to explain to Microsoft that you are disappointed with
their decisions concerning which features of Office to support and which
ones they dropped. Please be specific. http://www.microsoft.com/mac/suggestions.mspx?product=excel
They need to hear more than just the product failed to meet your
expectations. Please tell them exactly what you expected Microsoft to
deliver and where they fell short.
You may be happier with Microsoft Office 2004 or NeoOffice (free). Certainly
worth trying.
Quoting from "CyberTaz" , in article
C3DC932D.32CA9%onlygeneraltaz1@com.cast.net, on [DATE:
> Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the ads from Apple are
> addressing the Macintosh operating system & Macintosh hardware produced by
> Apple compared to the Window operating system, *not* the caliber of software
> applications offered by any one developer. Those ads certainly don't even
> mention Microsoft Office, let alone make any claims about the equivalency of
> that particular suite of products.
I disagree. Apple ads mention Microsoft Office and make no mention of the
fact that the Mac version is different from the PC version.
On 2/16/08 10:14 PM, in article
C3DD10B6.2987A%goldkey74@WarmerThanWarmMail.com, "Jim Gordon MVP" wrote:
> I disagree. Apple ads mention Microsoft Office
I stand corrected - in fact there may even be more than just this one that
"mentions" Microsoft Office
> and make no mention of the
> fact that the Mac version is different from the PC version.
But they make no claim that it is *identical*, either... And if I'm not
mistaken the ad in question is one of the earlier ones in the campaign & ran
*well* before the release of 2008 - possibly before the release of 2007, but
I can't recall for sure. [Back when there *was* a fair degree of parity:-)]
Maybe Steve Jobs is more prescient and/or close enough to Bill Gates to have seen the writing on the wall. MS has always downgraded the Office component programs for Mac compared to the Windows versions; 2008 just carries that process to greater extremes, perhaps, as this thread suggests, because MS knows that the Mac is a better package than a PC+Windows, so they are trying to undermine it.
Is that why Apple launched the iWork, with a very good spreadsheet program (missing some features, to be sure) and a mighty fine word processor. Not to mention a vastly superior presentation program. All of which easily export to MS's Office progs. So maybe the issue isn't why MS has downgraded Excel for Mac (altho it's valid to ask them and to lobby for re-grading upwards), but why people are still using MS Office on a Mac, when there's alternatives which work so much more sweetly with a Mac.
Food for thought...
Ian
In previous versions I was able to save and re-use custom chart designs. In Excel 2008 I have not yet found this very useful feature. Is it still possible?
First, I know that you all are volunteers and very hard working ones! I know that you are not in charge of MS policy or responsible for their attention span.
But these continual suggestions that we lodge “suggestions” with MS are making me foam at the mouth.
If MS really cares about user reactions, they surely are not waiting to see how many people take the trouble to write. They are reading these newsgroups every three hours and having meetings about the requests and frustrations they see here.
My field is marketing research, and it is an axiom that for every customer who takes the trouble to complain, many simply vote with their feet.
Please don’t interpret this as disrespect, but don’t you agree that it’s not our job to remind them of how to write good software?
Am I missing something here? My honest conclusion is that if they really care, they will already be working on anything that draws agreement from more than three or four people. And anything that draws agreement among the MVPs should be a fire-breathing emergency.
If they don’t read the newsgroups, having abandoned their responsibilities to write coherent and comprehensive documentation for the software in the first place, what are we dealing with here?
Again, this is just my perspective. I may be missing something obvious to cooler heads.
The differences between 2007 and 2008 are infuriating and unacceptable. It’s a story that is going to get told pretty soon if it hasn’t been already. It will damage Apple acceptance in the workplace, and it just plain stinks.
I have VMware Fusion on my iMac, and I have begun to use Excel 2007 instead of 2008. I can’t be bothered with the failings.
By the way, I have been a very dedicated Mac user since 1987. This is not a light decision.
On 2/16/08 7:05 PM, in article C3DD0EBA.29878%goldkey74@WarmerThanWarmMail.com, "Jim Gordon MVP" wrote:
Quoting from "Ardy" , in article ee88c11.55@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
on [DATE:
> so What this mean for me who JUST bought a mac and assumed that the
excel on
> mac would be just the same.. i guess it means I made a bad assumption
that
> Apple was as good as PC.. but its not
I was very concerned that people would get this impression from Microsoft's
actions. I had fears that if the premier software sold for the Mac (which
is
Microsoft Office) were substandard that it would negatively affect not
only
Microsoft's sales, but Apple's sales as well. I now see that my fears
were
not unjustified.
The Mac is fine. Microsoft drew conclusions about what the users of Mac
office want and I think they missed the boat.
Please use this URL to explain to Microsoft that you are disappointed
with
their decisions concerning which features of Office to support and which
ones they dropped. Please be specific. http://www.microsoft.com/mac/suggestions.mspx?product=excel
They need to hear more than just the product failed to meet your
expectations. Please tell them exactly what you expected Microsoft to
deliver and where they fell short.
You may be happier with Microsoft Office 2004 or NeoOffice (free). Certainly
worth trying.
-Jim
Best,
Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2
Anyone who works with others knows full well that the decision to get a Mac and begin using it on collaborative projects is controversial, to say the least.
One powerful argument in favor has become the (sadly invalid) notion that the workhorse programs in Office are comparable on both platforms. It is a very very very big deal for anyone who doesn’t work for himself or within a Mac-oriented profession.
For Mac Office to be so cynically inferior is something close to a betrayal. It can easily make someone who has just shelled out money for his first Mac feel as if he has been had. I am forced to use Windows on my Mac when I collaborate with others: not because the file formats are incompatible but because there are neat things possible on the Windows side that I can’t do on the Mac side.
Again, I always feel I need to acknowledge that you MVPs are not part of the problem. But I think someone needs to bring unpleasant heat to bear on the MacBU to deliver what Mac users have a perfect right to expect when they buy Office 2008: essential parity.
Unfortunately for all of us, MS is not simply “one developer.”
By the way, I have been a strong defender of MS for many years because they always have delivered quality. For the first time, I begin to smell a rat here. How accidental can it be that 2008 is so inferior to 2007?
Best,
- Bill
On 2/16/08 10:18 AM, in article C3DC932D.32CA9%onlygeneraltaz1@com.cast.net, "CyberTaz" wrote:
Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the ads from Apple
are
addressing the Macintosh operating system & Macintosh hardware produced
by
Apple compared to the Window operating system, *not* the caliber of software
applications offered by any one developer. Those ads certainly don't even
mention Microsoft Office, let alone make any claims about the equivalency
of
that particular suite of products.
IOW: The arguable assertion that MS provides a less capable version of
something for one platform than it does for another *doesn't* speak to
the
caliber of the platform itself.
Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
On 2/16/08 12:57 PM, in article ee88c11.57@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
"Ardy@officeformac.com" wrote:
> Actually I will choose to generalize Apple vs. PC because Apple advertises
the
> macbook pro as a laptop that has all the functionality of the PC. one
example
> of this type of advertising are the Mac vs. PC commercials.
>
> The fact is when it comes to Word Processing, Excel (not to mention
VBA) PC is
> much superior to MAC.. and for MOST MOST MOST people those two thing
are one
> the Major uses they get out of their computer..
>
> So yes Bob, I can generalize.
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2
Thank you Bill for your insightful responses. I am glad someone is other who is a Mac Lover but at the same time is not wiling to make excuses for them. It is obvious that this is a serious issue. I feel that the compatibility issues such as this really hinder my performance.
I think instead of calling it "Office for Mac", it should be called "A lessor, harder to use, insufficient and incomplete Office for Mac".
I have wrote in the suggestion box but I doubt anything would ever happen as a result of that.
and Ian for you to tell me to use iWork is totally ludicrous. There is a million and one things that Office can do that iWork can't. (forget about all the compatibility issue when working with others on same project where they have office - even though apple has made iWork office capable.. it doesn't really perform that well)
But I want to make it clear that I am NOT blaming Apple for the shortcomings of Office. I am just suggesting that it either has become or will become a problem for Apple in attracting business users.
Honestly, I am still not sure how business IT people are going to relate to Office 2007 run on PC emulators. Since VMware is primarily an enterprise-oriented player, I suspect it may be just fine with them. Still is a shame that someone can’t be 100% Mac and be 100% competitive.
On 2/18/08 10:58 AM, in article ee88c11.69@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, "Ardy@officeformac.com" wrote:
Thank you Bill for your insightful responses. I am glad someone is other
who is a Mac Lover but at the same time is not wiling to make excuses
for them. It is obvious that this is a serious issue. I feel that the
compatibility issues such as this really hinder my performance.
I think instead of calling it "Office for Mac", it should be called "A
lessor, harder to use, insufficient and incomplete Office for Mac".
I have wrote in the suggestion box but I doubt anything would ever happen
as a result of that.
and Ian for you to tell me to use iWork is totally ludicrous. There is
a million and one things that Office can do that iWork can't. (forget
about all the compatibility issue when working with others on same project
where they have office - even though apple has made iWork office capable..
it doesn't really perform that well)
Best,
Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2
Bill Weylock wrote:
> Jim -
>
>
> First, I know that you all are volunteers and very hard working ones! I
> know that you are not in charge of MS policy or responsible for their
> attention span.
>
> But these continual suggestions that we lodge “suggestions” with MS are
> making me foam at the mouth.
>
> If MS really cares about user reactions, they surely are not waiting to
> see how many people take the trouble to write. They are reading these
> newsgroups every three hours and having meetings about the requests and
> frustrations they see here.
>
> My field is marketing research, and it is an axiom that for every
> customer who takes the trouble to complain, many simply vote with their
> feet.
>
> Please don’t interpret this as disrespect, but don’t you agree that it’s
> not our job to remind them of how to write good software?
>
> Am I missing something here? My honest conclusion is that if they really
> care, they will already be working on anything that draws agreement from
> more than three or four people. And anything that draws agreement among
> the MVPs should be a fire-breathing emergency.
>
> If they don’t read the newsgroups, having abandoned their
> responsibilities to write coherent and comprehensive documentation for
> the software in the first place, what are we dealing with here?
>
> Again, this is just my perspective. I may be missing something obvious
> to cooler heads.
>
> The differences between 2007 and 2008 are infuriating and unacceptable.
> It’s a story that is going to get told pretty soon if it hasn’t been
> already. It will damage Apple acceptance in the workplace, and it just
> plain stinks.
Hey Bill, that's what Microsoft is Banking on. If they can piss off
enough Macintosh Customers to abandon apple. Then they will gleefully
accept it.
If we don't voice our anger on the Feedback by telling what features we
Miss. Then they will have succeeded in wanting to to do ever since MR
Gates was rebuffed the two Steve's when he wanted to be a part of Apple.
WE should stick to our guns and voice our displeasure. If gives them
headaches to look at all the feedback request. Then we will force them
to rethink. And decided it better to cooperate than make us mad.
I'm yearning for the day when Apple comes out with something so great
that PC types leave in droves and puts MS un the edge of Bankruptcy.
Then they will have to cater to get our business.
> I have VMware Fusion on my iMac, and I have begun to use Excel 2007
> instead of 2008. I can’t be bothered with the failings.
>
> By the way, I have been a very dedicated Mac user since 1987. This is
> not a light decision.
>
>
> On 2/16/08 7:05 PM, in article
> C3DD0EBA.29878%goldkey74@WarmerThanWarmMail.com, "Jim Gordon MVP"
> wrote:
>
> Quoting from "Ardy" , in article
> ee88c11.55@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
> on [DATE:
>
> > so What this mean for me who JUST bought a mac and assumed that
> the excel on
> > mac would be just the same.. i guess it means I made a bad
> assumption that
> > Apple was as good as PC.. but its not
>
> I was very concerned that people would get this impression from
> Microsoft's
> actions. I had fears that if the premier software sold for the Mac
> (which is
> Microsoft Office) were substandard that it would negatively affect
> not only
> Microsoft's sales, but Apple's sales as well. I now see that my
> fears were
> not unjustified.
>
> The Mac is fine. Microsoft drew conclusions about what the users of Mac
> office want and I think they missed the boat.
>
> Please use this URL to explain to Microsoft that you are
> disappointed with
> their decisions concerning which features of Office to support and which
> ones they dropped. Please be specific.
> http://www.microsoft.com/mac/suggestions.mspx?product=excel
>
> They need to hear more than just the product failed to meet your
> expectations. Please tell them exactly what you expected Microsoft to
> deliver and where they fell short.
>
> You may be happier with Microsoft Office 2004 or NeoOffice (free).
> Certainly
> worth trying.
>
> -Jim
>
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
> Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
> Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2
>
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am thinking it’s more likely that the migration to Apple is going to be a little bubble that pops soon. If I’m gravitating toward Windows after all these years of dedicated Macaddiction, there is trouble afoot.
Or I’m simply losing it.
On 2/18/08 12:24 PM, in article #kGIIxmcIHA.5348@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, "Phillip Jones" wrote:
Bill Weylock wrote:
> Jim -
>
>
> First, I know that you all are volunteers and very hard working ones!
I
> know that you are not in charge of MS policy or responsible for their
> attention span.
>
> But these continual suggestions that we lodge “suggestions”
with MS are
> making me foam at the mouth.
>
> If MS really cares about user reactions, they surely are not waiting
to
> see how many people take the trouble to write. They are reading these
> newsgroups every three hours and having meetings about the requests
and
> frustrations they see here.
>
> My field is marketing research, and it is an axiom that for every
> customer who takes the trouble to complain, many simply vote with their
> feet.
>
> Please don’t interpret this as disrespect, but don’t you
agree that it’s
> not our job to remind them of how to write good software?
>
> Am I missing something here? My honest conclusion is that if they really
> care, they will already be working on anything that draws agreement
from
> more than three or four people. And anything that draws agreement among
> the MVPs should be a fire-breathing emergency.
>
> If they don’t read the newsgroups, having abandoned their
> responsibilities to write coherent and comprehensive documentation for
> the software in the first place, what are we dealing with here?
>
> Again, this is just my perspective. I may be missing something obvious
> to cooler heads.
>
> The differences between 2007 and 2008 are infuriating and unacceptable.
> It’s a story that is going to get told pretty soon if it hasn’t
been
> already. It will damage Apple acceptance in the workplace, and it just
> plain stinks.
Hey Bill, that's what Microsoft is Banking on. If they can piss off
enough Macintosh Customers to abandon apple. Then they will gleefully
accept it.
If we don't voice our anger on the Feedback by telling what features we
Miss. Then they will have succeeded in wanting to to do ever since MR
Gates was rebuffed the two Steve's when he wanted to be a part of Apple.
WE should stick to our guns and voice our displeasure. If gives them
headaches to look at all the feedback request. Then we will force them
to rethink. And decided it better to cooperate than make us mad.
I'm yearning for the day when Apple comes out with something so great
that PC types leave in droves and puts MS un the edge of Bankruptcy.
Then they will have to cater to get our business.
> I have VMware Fusion on my iMac, and I have begun to use Excel 2007
> instead of 2008. I can’t be bothered with the failings.
>
> By the way, I have been a very dedicated Mac user since 1987. This is
> not a light decision.
>
>
> On 2/16/08 7:05 PM, in article
> C3DD0EBA.29878%goldkey74@WarmerThanWarmMail.com, "Jim Gordon MVP"
> wrote:
>
> Quoting from "Ardy" , in article
> ee88c11.55@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
> on [DATE:
>
> > so What this mean for me who JUST bought a mac and assumed that
> the excel on
> > mac would be just the same.. i guess it means I made a bad
> assumption that
> > Apple was as good as PC.. but its not
>
> I was very concerned that people would get this impression from
> Microsoft's
> actions. I had fears that if the premier software sold for the Mac
> (which is
> Microsoft Office) were substandard that it would negatively affect
> not only
> Microsoft's sales, but Apple's sales as well. I now see that my
> fears were
> not unjustified.
>
> The Mac is fine. Microsoft drew conclusions about what the users
of Mac
> office want and I think they missed the boat.
>
> Please use this URL to explain to Microsoft that you are
> disappointed with
> their decisions concerning which features of Office to support and
which
> ones they dropped. Please be specific.
> http://www.microsoft.com/mac/suggestions.mspx?product=excel
>
> They need to hear more than just the product failed to meet your
> expectations. Please tell them exactly what you expected Microsoft
to
> deliver and where they fell short.
>
> You may be happier with Microsoft Office 2004 or NeoOffice (free).
> Certainly
> worth trying.
>
> -Jim
>
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
> Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
> Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2
>
>
Best,
Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2
Your marketing expertise is right on the money. I have a management background and know that what you said about customers voting with their feet is absolutely correct. I am sure that Microsoft knows that, too.
The reason the MVPs often recommend using the Help > Send Feedback route is that we know that the product managers read each and every one of those messages. Microsoft employees read and respond to newsgroups postings only occassionally. When there’s a major product release, such as the Office 2008 release, Microsoft employees will regularly read the newsgroups – sometimes looking for specific issues, other times just seeing what’s here. The MacBU tries not to control or interject their thoughts in the newsgroup forums. They think there is value in keeping the expression free and open. Short story: send feedback is read for sure, but a Microsoft employee reading every single newsgroup posting is not likely.
The MVPs do get to meet with MacBU on occasion, and I have no doubt at all that each and every one of them cares deeply about customer comments and reactions.
You are probably aware of a typical product life cycle. Early adopter, growth phase, mature phase, decline. Some people refer to decline phase as commoditization. I don’t know where Microsoft considers the office product, but to me it is in the mature phase, but with the introduction of Office 2007/2008 I think it’s headed to the decline phase. Good product management can keep a mature product fresh indefinitely (eg M&Ms and lots of other old, big brands). One of the aspects of this approach is “don’t break it.”
During the growth phase Microsoft said it wanted to issue a new version of Office and a new version of Windows every 2 years. A bunch of factors got in the way of that plan. Increasing complexity took longer to bring the product to market. Customers resisted spending a lot of money every two years to get the latest new features. Recent Mac Office releases were 98, 2001, v.x, 2004, and 2008. The 2001 to v.X time frame was only about 1 year (due to introduction of OSX), but v.X was mostly a port (not many new features). 2001 and 2004 each introduced lots of new features. 2008 was mostly a port to dual binary, but also was an opportunity to introduce some new features.
I give the MacBU lots of credit for coming up with great new ideas and features for Office. But for 2008 a monkey wrench was thrown in. Half-way through the development cycle Apple changed the processor from PPC to Intel. That meant the VBA compiler was unusable on Intel. The folks who wrote the VBA compiler probably went on to other things 15 years ago and aren’t around any more. The VBA compiler was made before MacBU was even born. Where do you find someone who can write a VBA compiler that works on MacOS and Intel? How fast can it be done? It would be as if someone cut off the chocolate supply to Mars so they would have to change M&Ms and other candy for the Halloween season. Do you stop selling candy or sell candy without chocolate?
I’m way oversimplifying, but Microsoft chose to sell their candy without the chocolate, knowing chocolate lovers like us would be flabbergasted. But they need to keep putting new product on the shelves to keep the mature product alive, and are hoping the chocolate lovers will get over it.
It’s disappointing to me that MacBU has made no commitment to promptly restore VBA to Mac Office. Joel Spolsky was on the Excel Program Management team from 1991 through 1993 where he wrote the specification for VBA for Excel. He no longer works for Microsoft. Joel’s thoughts about the MacBU decision to drop VBA are here: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/04/25.html
A couple years ago Microsoft publicly stated their intentions to kill VBA altogether from Office. They retreated due to pressure from MVPs and other customers and now state publicly that VBA will not be going away any time soon on Windows office. MacBU decided to go ahead and sell Office 2008 with VBA. This gives them a real world test (whether they wanted to test this or not) as to how the market would react to the removal of VBA and what consumers and developers would do without it.
The MacBU faced a triple bind. Loss of VBA. Windows Office changed the core graphics/drawing engine. Windows Office changed the file format (that was promised never to be changed back in 1997). If MacBU didn’t get file compatible with the XML documents they would have been completely incompatible with windows office 2007. Ditto on the core graphics/drawing engine. If they didn’t come out with a new office version soon it might look like they were abandoning the Mac altogether (4 years since the last big release has already gone by). Promises to the contrary notwithstanding, many people doubted Microsoft’s commitment to the Mac.
So, Bill, what would you do? Aren’t you glad you’re not the marketing manager facing such a sticky situation? Pretend you’re the marketing manager and the boss says - “We gotta get a new version to the market. If we don’t get file compatible right away it looks really really bad. No one here knows how to make a VBA compiler. Let’s roll with a new version without it. Our research shows it’s a hardly used feature, anyway.”
Bill, you and I can armchair this situation pretty safely. It’s easy for me to say that if I were in charge at MacBU that I would not have let Mac office out the door without VBA unless Windows Office dropped that feature first. I’m not so sure I would be as strong if I knew that I would have to lay off programmers in order to stick by my guns, and that I would have to really scramble to find a person to write a new compiler, and the opportunity cost would be the new features I wanted to roll out along with a huge delay in rolling out the new version. Developers want to make new stuff, not just re-create what was already there but disappeared in a puff of smoke, so you need to keep a forward momentum going with them.
I’m not trying to make excuses for MacBU. They faced a bunch of unpleasant facts, a key one of which they had no control over (PPC to Intel) for which the timing was especially bad. Although I disagree with the key decisions MacBU made, I would never ascribe any malicious intent to their decision motivation. I am sure the folks who ultimately prevailed can justify their decision based upon sound reasoning of consideration of the possible alternative outcomes that they projected.
At this stage it would be really easy to go full tilt negative, from a VBA consumer point of view. I would be very publicly negative if I didn’t think such negativity would hurt Apple and the Mac. I’m not ready to throw in the towel just yet. If I thought that MacBU didn’t care I would not suggest using the feedback mechanism. I think the DO care and that they care A LOT, which is why I think feedback is especially effective.
I think our feedback is critical at this time. MacBU has been nearly silent about the reaction to Office 2008. As consumers, we can tell them what we want – our expectations of the products they produce. If we get mad and simply shut up they won’t know what’s on our minds. We can vote with our feet, which speaks volumes about our feelings, but isn’t specific about why we are using our feet. We consumers have an open channel to MacBU’s most important decision makers, so we should use it.
VBA was saved by consumers on the window side. Maybe it can resurrected by consumers on the Mac.
-Jim
Quoting from "Bill Weylock" , in article C3DF0D56.53E79%bill@nospam.net, on [DATE:
Jim -
First, I know that you all are volunteers and very hard working ones!
I know that you are not in charge of MS policy or responsible for their
attention span.
But these continual suggestions that we lodge “suggestions”
with MS are making me foam at the mouth.
If MS really cares about user reactions, they surely are not waiting to
see how many people take the trouble to write. They are reading these
newsgroups every three hours and having meetings about the requests and
frustrations they see here.
My field is marketing research, and it is an axiom that for every customer
who takes the trouble to complain, many simply vote with their feet.
Please don’t interpret this as disrespect, but don’t you agree
that it’s not our job to remind them of how to write good software?
Am I missing something here? My honest conclusion is that if they really
care, they will already be working on anything that draws agreement from
more than three or four people. And anything that draws agreement among
the MVPs should be a fire-breathing emergency.
If they don’t read the newsgroups, having abandoned their responsibilities
to write coherent and comprehensive documentation for the software in
the first place, what are we dealing with here?
Again, this is just my perspective. I may be missing something obvious
to cooler heads.
The differences between 2007 and 2008 are infuriating and unacceptable.
It’s a story that is going to get told pretty soon if it hasn’t
been already. It will damage Apple acceptance in the workplace, and it
just plain stinks.
I have VMware Fusion on my iMac, and I have begun to use Excel 2007 instead
of 2008. I can’t be bothered with the failings.
By the way, I have been a very dedicated Mac user since 1987. This is
not a light decision.
On 2/16/08 7:05 PM, in article C3DD0EBA.29878%goldkey74@WarmerThanWarmMail.com,
"Jim Gordon MVP" wrote:
Quoting from "Ardy" , in article ee88c11.55@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw,
on [DATE:
> so What this mean for me who JUST bought a mac and assumed that the
excel on
> mac would be just the same.. i guess it means I made a bad assumption
that
> Apple was as good as PC.. but its not
I was very concerned that people would get this impression from Microsoft's
actions. I had fears that if the premier software sold for the Mac (which
is
Microsoft Office) were substandard that it would negatively affect not
only
Microsoft's sales, but Apple's sales as well. I now see that my fears
were
not unjustified.
The Mac is fine. Microsoft drew conclusions about what the users of
Mac
office want and I think they missed the boat.
Please use this URL to explain to Microsoft that you are disappointed
with
their decisions concerning which features of Office to support and which
ones they dropped. Please be specific. http://www.microsoft.com/mac/suggestions.mspx?product=excel
They need to hear more than just the product failed to meet your
expectations. Please tell them exactly what you expected Microsoft to
deliver and where they fell short.
You may be happier with Microsoft Office 2004 or NeoOffice (free). Certainly
worth trying.
-Jim
Best,
Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2
Quoting from "Phillip Jones" , in article
#kGIIxmcIHA.5348@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, on [DATE:
>> The differences between 2007 and 2008 are infuriating and unacceptable.
>> It¹s a story that is going to get told pretty soon if it hasn¹t been
>> already. It will damage Apple acceptance in the workplace, and it just
>> plain stinks.
>
>
> Hey Bill, that's what Microsoft is Banking on. If they can piss off
> enough Macintosh Customers to abandon apple. Then they will gleefully
> accept it.
>
> If we don't voice our anger on the Feedback by telling what features we
> Miss. Then they will have succeeded in wanting to to do ever since MR
> Gates was rebuffed the two Steve's when he wanted to be a part of Apple.
>
>
> WE should stick to our guns and voice our displeasure. If gives them
> headaches to look at all the feedback request. Then we will force them
> to rethink. And decided it better to cooperate than make us mad.
>
> I'm yearning for the day when Apple comes out with something so great
> that PC types leave in droves and puts MS un the edge of Bankruptcy.
> Then they will have to cater to get our business.
Hi Phillip,
I don't detect any glee from MacBU that they dropped VBA.
MacBU banks on Mac users to buy Mac Office. Each of us who does not purchase
a copy of Office 2008 is a direct loss to MacBU, and they know that very
well. It does them no good if we use Windows Office. I think it would be
inaccurate to say that MacBU wants Mac users to abandon Apple. They
completely depend on Mac users to purchase Mac Office.
I do agree that we should let them know what we expect them to deliver to us
by sending MacBU feedback.
Apple would have to support VBA - all of it - in their applications. Apple's
marketing plan is differentiation. I don't see how VBA fits in there.
Sun Microsystems, on the other hand, has for years been eating away at
Microsoft Office by giving away OpenOffice. And Google is cutting into
Office with Google docs. Either one or a combination of them could
eventually be the downfall of Microsoft Office. VBA has a pretty good start
in OpenOffice right now. And it is cross platform.
MacBU is facing increasing competition from Sun and Google, so they will pay
attention to us.
But I always get the feeling that the MacBU is sort of like the
"red-headed" stepchild and are only kept around with the most minimum
budget and as few a developers as possible. because should Apple Fail
and I doubt seriously it will (But Gates and the big-wigs at MS are
crossing their fingers will happen), The MacBU would be shut down within
5 minutes.
That why I earn for apple to come up with something so killer that the
PC users come over in droves. I earn for the day when Apple become
55-60% of the Market. So we can finally get some respect.
Sorry if it looks like I am jaded. But from someone that who's first Mac
was an SE/30 with OS 6.3 and the treatment Apple has received, you
should be able to see where I am coming from.
Jim Gordon MVP wrote:
> Quoting from "Phillip Jones" , in article
> #kGIIxmcIHA.5348@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, on [DATE:
>
>>> The differences between 2007 and 2008 are infuriating and unacceptable.
>>> It¹s a story that is going to get told pretty soon if it hasn¹t been
>>> already. It will damage Apple acceptance in the workplace, and it just
>>> plain stinks.
>>
>> Hey Bill, that's what Microsoft is Banking on. If they can piss off
>> enough Macintosh Customers to abandon apple. Then they will gleefully
>> accept it.
>>
>> If we don't voice our anger on the Feedback by telling what features we
>> Miss. Then they will have succeeded in wanting to to do ever since MR
>> Gates was rebuffed the two Steve's when he wanted to be a part of Apple.
>>
>>
>> WE should stick to our guns and voice our displeasure. If gives them
>> headaches to look at all the feedback request. Then we will force them
>> to rethink. And decided it better to cooperate than make us mad.
>>
>> I'm yearning for the day when Apple comes out with something so great
>> that PC types leave in droves and puts MS un the edge of Bankruptcy.
>> Then they will have to cater to get our business.
>
> Hi Phillip,
>
> I don't detect any glee from MacBU that they dropped VBA.
>
> MacBU banks on Mac users to buy Mac Office. Each of us who does not purchase
> a copy of Office 2008 is a direct loss to MacBU, and they know that very
> well. It does them no good if we use Windows Office. I think it would be
> inaccurate to say that MacBU wants Mac users to abandon Apple. They
> completely depend on Mac users to purchase Mac Office.
>
> I do agree that we should let them know what we expect them to deliver to us
> by sending MacBU feedback.
>
> Apple would have to support VBA - all of it - in their applications. Apple's
> marketing plan is differentiation. I don't see how VBA fits in there.
>
> Sun Microsystems, on the other hand, has for years been eating away at
> Microsoft Office by giving away OpenOffice. And Google is cutting into
> Office with Google docs. Either one or a combination of them could
> eventually be the downfall of Microsoft Office. VBA has a pretty good start
> in OpenOffice right now. And it is cross platform.
>
> MacBU is facing increasing competition from Sun and Google, so they will pay
> attention to us.
>
> -Jim
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> But I always get the feeling that the MacBU is sort of like the
> "red-headed" stepchild and are only kept around with the most minimum
> budget and as few a developers as possible. because should Apple Fail
> and I doubt seriously it will (But Gates and the big-wigs at MS are
> crossing their fingers will happen), The MacBU would be shut down within
> 5 minutes.
Phillip - you persist in this dark fantasy with, AFAICT, exactly ZERO
evidence to back it up other than paranoia. I know that it's somewhat
comforting to feel that you're part of a small but righteous group
afflicted by a big baddie, but where's your proof?
MacBU is a profitable business segment (at least for now). It's budget
is based on a combination of projected revenue and maintenance of that
profit margin, just like 90% of other established business lines. If
there were more Mac users, or if Mac users were willing to pay more for
Office, you can bet that the resources would be allocated.
Far from being forced to have "as few a developers as possible", MacBU
has spent a significant fraction of the last few years trying to hire
more competent Mac developers. Guess what - it's hard to find them! The
market's too small! And while I'm sure there are some developers that
wouldn't move to Redmond on a bet, a good salary and benefits usually
wins out.
How well do you know Gates and "the big-wigs" that you have such
insight into their psyches? Have you talked with any of them for even
five minutes?
One thing MS does NOT do is leave money on the table. Shutting MacBU
down would do exactly that. It makes NO sense.
And of course, if Apple were to fail, ALL Mac software developers will
rather quickly shut down. They'd be stupid not to.
> Sorry if it looks like I am jaded. But from someone that who's first Mac
> was an SE/30 with OS 6.3 and the treatment Apple has received, you
> should be able to see where I am coming from.
Just because you're a recent convert is no reason to be jaded!!
The treatment Apple has received has largely been of its own making.
Sheer arrogance combined with failure to adapt to the market.
It was lucky that Microsoft needed a front to avoid further anti-trust
sanctions, and gave that huge infusion of cash to Apple.
It's lucky that MacBU busted their asses to get Office v.X out within a
few months of the launch of OS X. Had that not occurred, Apple likely
would have had a hard time surviving as a computer manufacturer.
I fell for the line "switch over to Mac rather than making the move from Windows XP to Vista"
As a "competent" programmer I did not see a problem in learning a new programming language and rewriting all of my Excel VBA code. However I now find that I can only find referneces to the 2004 version of Applescript for Excel. Further, my code does some pretty intensive math with arrays of floating point, and also uses longs as bit arrays. Reading the documentation I conclude (as the name suggests) that Applescript is indeed a scripting language, lacking the data types and structures of VBA. I now wonder if any conversion may be possible at all. I see this as a much more significant loss of function than just having to rewrite my macros in a different language.
JE McGimpsey wrote:
> In article ,
> Phillip Jones wrote:
>
>> But I always get the feeling that the MacBU is sort of like the
>> "red-headed" stepchild and are only kept around with the most minimum
>> budget and as few a developers as possible. because should Apple Fail
>> and I doubt seriously it will (But Gates and the big-wigs at MS are
>> crossing their fingers will happen), The MacBU would be shut down within
>> 5 minutes.
>
> Phillip - you persist in this dark fantasy with, AFAICT, exactly ZERO
> evidence to back it up other than paranoia. I know that it's somewhat
> comforting to feel that you're part of a small but righteous group
> afflicted by a big baddie, but where's your proof?
Come on now you mean to tell me that MS puts as much money and effort in
MacBU as other portions of their company.
The fantasy as you call it. is based my redoing of MacUser MacWorld.
and Mac Addict over the years. plus my personal experience with software
that MS bought and promptly Killed, or Influenced other companies to kill.
Bo I am not some righteous group. All I want is a fair shake. I want
software from any company to work the same as it does on one platform as
it does for another. I don't care of it is UNIX, Linux, Mac or even
windows/DOS. what I'd like to see is be able to sit down in front of a
Computer/ any computer and be able to do this , this and this without
batting an eyelash. Instead You can do this unless your own the
Platform, or you can do that unless you own that platform.
> MacBU is a profitable business segment (at least for now). It's budget
> is based on a combination of projected revenue and maintenance of that
> profit margin, just like 90% of other established business lines. If
> there were more Mac users, or if Mac users were willing to pay more for
> Office, you can bet that the resources would be allocated.
>
> Far from being forced to have "as few a developers as possible", MacBU
> has spent a significant fraction of the last few years trying to hire
> more competent Mac developers. Guess what - it's hard to find them! The
> market's too small! And while I'm sure there are some developers that
> wouldn't move to Redmond on a bet, a good salary and benefits usually
> wins out.
>
> How well do you know Gates and "the big-wigs" that you have such
> insight into their psyches? Have you talked with any of them for even
> five minutes?
>
> One thing MS does NOT do is leave money on the table. Shutting MacBU
> down would do exactly that. It makes NO sense.
>
> And of course, if Apple were to fail, ALL Mac software developers will
> rather quickly shut down. They'd be stupid not to.
>
>> Sorry if it looks like I am jaded. But from someone that who's first Mac
>> was an SE/30 with OS 6.3 and the treatment Apple has received, you
>> should be able to see where I am coming from.
>
> Just because you're a recent convert is no reason to be jaded!!
Recent Convert?. I don't consider 1986 to be a recent convert.
>
> The treatment Apple has received has largely been of its own making.
> Sheer arrogance combined with failure to adapt to the market.
That's typical of MS defenders.
You know for a Fact that the use of a Mouse and use of a desktop type
metaphor was originated at Apple. I realize the very early works was
done at Xerox Parc project but Xerox didn't want it and didn't step in
the way, when Apple came out with their own design *based* on that research.
Then MS out right stole the design and because Apple wasn't big enough
it was unable to pay enough to win a patent suite.
> It was lucky that Microsoft needed a front to avoid further anti-trust
> sanctions, and gave that huge infusion of cash to Apple.
Yes it was lucky that MS' Lawyers did talk some reason , and put the
fear of god into them. Because had the not done so, and not helped Apple
to stay alive they would have met a worse fate than AT&T did back when
the old Ma bell system was broken up.
>
> It's lucky that MacBU busted their asses to get Office v.X out within a
> few months of the launch of OS X. Had that not occurred, Apple likely
> would have had a hard time surviving as a computer manufacturer.
It was great that the MacBu did get out X of course I was able to use
2001 on until 2004 came out. MS and other software people more than
adequate warning OSX was Coming my goodness version of Ox.1 were out a
year before they settled on X.1.5 I was not an early adopter I stuck
with OS 9.2.2 until 10.2.3 came out. and even then for a while I
switched back and forth.
If you have to keep up with the times new designs, and system have to
flow as well.
My goodness PC's can still run and some people still do DOS programs.
At some point you need to say we just can't keep the same thing for 30
or forty years we have got to change and be innovative.
Have to resign myself to the US of MS products because for Macs even
though there are a lot of open source wannabes, MS is really still the
only game in town.
So I have to deal with but I don't have to like it. Its kind of like
going to the DR at some point you have to go to them whether you want to
or not.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come on now you mean to tell me that MS puts as much money and effort in
> MacBU as other portions of their company.
I don't have any data, but I strongly suspect that the investment
criteria are the same for MacBU as they are for other product groups, so
that the money is "as much" *relative to sales*.
Do you have any data that says otherwise?
> All I want is a fair shake. I want software from any company to work
> the same as it does on one platform as it does for another.
Including QuickTime on Windows machines?
Are you suggesting that if MacBU has a better idea that's Mac-specific
(as they nearly always do), they shouldn't implement it because it
wouldn't work the same as on the WinOffice side?
> what I'd like to see is be able to sit down in front of a
> Computer/ any computer and be able to do this , this and this without
> batting an eyelash. Instead You can do this unless your own the
> Platform, or you can do that unless you own that platform.
Apple would have gone out of business long ago if the market felt as you
say you do.
> >> Sorry if it looks like I am jaded. But from someone that who's first Mac
> >> was an SE/30 with OS 6.3 and the treatment Apple has received, you
> >> should be able to see where I am coming from.
> >
> > Just because you're a recent convert is no reason to be jaded!!
>
> Recent Convert?. I don't consider 1986 to be a recent convert.
Hmmm... the SE/30 wasn't introduced until 1989. Nor was OS 6.0.3 (there
wasn't a OS 6.3). But I meant my "recent convert" humorously
> > The treatment Apple has received has largely been of its own making.
> > Sheer arrogance combined with failure to adapt to the market.
>
> That's typical of MS defenders.
And that's a typically ad hominem rejoinder!
I don't typically defend MS (tho' I'll admit to being partial to MacBU),
but I also can't stand conspiracy theories promulgated without evidence.
> You know for a Fact that the use of a Mouse and use of a desktop type
> metaphor was originated at Apple. I realize the very early works was
> done at Xerox Parc project but Xerox didn't want it and didn't step in
> the way, when Apple came out with their own design *based* on that research.
Well, Xerox did *delay* (fatally, for their suit), but they *did* sue
Apple for infringing its GUI copyrights.
> Then MS out right stole the design
Patent revisionism! Apple *licensed* nearly all the GUI elements to MS
for Windows 1.0! Apple only decided it owned the copyrights when Windows
2.0 came out.
> and because Apple wasn't big enough
> it was unable to pay enough to win a patent suite.
It lost the case when it made a bad tactical decision so that the
*copyright* issue wasn't addressed. There was never a patent suit.
> It was great that the MacBu did get out X of course I was able to use
> 2001 on until 2004 came out.
But no corporate users could. Your needs are very basic, Phillip.
And if your theories held any water, MS would have simply shut down
production of v.X until Apple's OS X business withered and died.
Instead, they saw a *synergistic* opportunity to make a profit.
> So I have to deal with but I don't have to like it. Its kind of like
> going to the DR at some point you have to go to them whether you want to
> or not.
Oh, I don't expect you'll ever like change...!!
OTOH, I haven't been to a doctor for about 6 years, and don't intend to
any time soon, so what do I know?
Quoting from "Phillip Jones" , in article
OUbd$rxcIHA.4696@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl, on [DATE:
> Hope you are right.
>
> But I always get the feeling that the MacBU is sort of like the
> "red-headed" stepchild and are only kept around with the most minimum
> budget and as few a developers as possible. because should Apple Fail
> and I doubt seriously it will (But Gates and the big-wigs at MS are
> crossing their fingers will happen), The MacBU would be shut down within
> 5 minutes.
>
> That why I earn for apple to come up with something so killer that the
> PC users come over in droves. I earn for the day when Apple become
> 55-60% of the Market. So we can finally get some respect.
>
> Sorry if it looks like I am jaded. But from someone that who's first Mac
> was an SE/30 with OS 6.3 and the treatment Apple has received, you
> should be able to see where I am coming from.
An economist would probably explain the Apple/Microsoft situation with some
graphs with curves on them that show that as long as a niche company sticks
with their niche the larger near-monopoly will let them exist indefinitely.
But if the niche player attempts to overtake the near-monopoly it is a high
risk endeavor for the nice player. There are exceptions, but usually the
niche player loses everything. Apple is not about high risk.
It is absolutely certain that Apple's market share has grown rapidly the
past few years. No longer is it less than 3% of the market. In laptops they
are capturing more than 40% market share in places where they barely made a
showing a few years ago. Here's one analysis: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071018-dell-staunches-the-market-shar
e-bleeding-while-apple-sees-big-growth.html
Gates & co. does not want Apple consumers to bolt to Google, Apple or Sun
for Office applications. Virtualization is all the rage in the PC camp right
now, so to them it is logical we would install VMware or Parallels and be
happy campers, a copy of Windows, and Office 2007. So far they don't
completely get that many of us want to use a native Mac application that has
equivalent functionality and retains compatibility with Windows office.
That doesn't preclude a different UI and additional support for Mac only
features, but it does mean full support for VBA.
NO PRINT PREVIEW IN EXCEL AND POWERPOINT!!!! Are you guys at Microsoft becoming completely nuts now?? What kind of improvement is that supposed to be? PLEASE, PLEASE FIX IT! THANXXXS SO MUCH IN ADVANCED!
If you'd bothered to read more than just the subject line you'd realize
that:
1- Participants in these newsgroups Do Not work for Microsoft,
2- Just because Print Preview isn't offered in exactly the same manner to
which you are accustomed doesn't mean that another - possibly better -
alternative doesn't exist,
3- Those alternatives have been discussed & described here & elsewhere,
4- Typing in All Caps in electronic communications is considered rude - the
equivalent of screaming at someone, and
5- The "guys at Microsoft" have been *completely [and incurably] nuts* for
quite some time:-)
Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
On 2/20/08 4:36 AM, in article ee88c11.81@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, "RARITY" wrote:
> NO PRINT PREVIEW IN EXCEL AND POWERPOINT!!!! Are you guys at Microsoft
> becoming completely nuts now?? What kind of improvement is that supposed to
> be? PLEASE, PLEASE FIX IT! THANXXXS SO MUCH IN ADVANCED!
Herewith is the perspective of an end-user in the trenches. I am a professor in a medical school and run a medium-sized research program with graduate students and postdocs, and as well I teach about 60 hours per year. My research program depends very heavily on automated data collection through LabView. The data collected is sent to Excel where major multi-page macros crunch the numbers very objectively, and then plot up the preliminary results, with error bars. I then take that data and ultimately write it up using Word with embedded citation tools from EndNote. With Office 2008 none of this remains possible. I must continue to use my Excel 2004 macros until I find another solution, which is clearly not Excel 2008; perhaps LabView can do the job. For charting with error bars I will henceforth be using DeltaGraph, which is a very nice package and accepts Excel spreadsheets. For word processing, i will continue to use Word 2004, at least until a version of Word is developed that is compatible with Endnote, or until Apple's Pages becomes compatible with Endnote, whichever comes first. I'm an Apple user since the Apple II+ days--- before the Mac was even marketed. I'm clearly a long-time user and have many GB of data in Excel files. I am uncomfortable with the options my research program now faces with Excel 2008, and will look for new ways to keep my program moving forward, no matter what software I use. I'd hate to abandon Office, but if it cannot do what I need, then unfortunately I must migrate. It seems clear that users like myself were not a target for Office 2008. How long should I wait for fixes to these problems?
On 2/20/08 9:40 AM, in article ee88c11.83@webcrossing.caR9absDaxw, "William
Pearce, PhD" <> wrote:
> Herewith is the perspective of an end-user in the trenches. I am a professor
> in a medical school and run a medium-sized research program with graduate
> students and postdocs, and as well I teach about 60 hours per year. My
> research program depends very heavily on automated data collection through
> LabView. The data collected is sent to Excel where major multi-page macros
> crunch the numbers very objectively, and then plot up the preliminary results,
> with error bars. I then take that data and ultimately write it up using Word
> with embedded citation tools from EndNote. With Office 2008 none of this
> remains possible. I must continue to use my Excel 2004 macros until I find
> another solution, which is clearly not Excel 2008; perhaps LabView can do the
> job. For charting with error bars I will henceforth be using DeltaGraph, which
> is a very nice package and accepts Excel spreadsheets. For word processing, i
> will continue to use Word 2004, at least until a version of Word is developed
> that is compatible with Endnote, or until Apple's Pages becomes compatible
> with Endnote, whichever comes first. I'm an Apple user since the Apple II+
> days--- before the Mac was even marketed. I'm clearly a long-time user and
> have many GB of data in Excel files. I am uncomfortable with the options my
> research program now faces with Excel 2008, and will look for new ways to keep
> my program moving forward, no matter what software I use. I'd hate to abandon
> Office, but if it cannot do what I need, then unfortunately I must migrate. It
> seems clear that users like myself were not a target for Office 2008. How long
> should I wait for fixes to these problems?
As a consultant who makes his living developing Excel applications for both
Windows and Macintosh clients in a wide variety of industries, I share your
discomfort. My practice specializes in applications which work on both
windows and Macintosh platforms. I too am a long time Macintosh user and
developer. Where macros are an integral part of the system, we (you and I)
have no choice but to remain with Office 2004.
However, I don't agree with you that "users like myself were not a target
for Office 2008." I think, quite the contrary. Microsoft's MacBU is acutely
aware of us, and the pain (and more importantly lost sales) that this
release is causing. Unfortunately they had some very major hurdles to cross
with this version of Office, not the least of which was the switch to Intel
Processors combined with the new file formats, and Excels major switch to
the large grid. Throwing manpower at a problem (no matter how unlimited
resources may seem) is not the solution. (Nine women can't have a baby in
one month.) The short comings in this release were simply the result of some
really hard tradeoffs that had to be made between what could be done within
the allowable time. There are no conspiracy theories at work: Microsoft is
not trying to subvert the Macintosh capabilities.
I'm confident that after the MacBU developers take a well earned rest after
this release's final push (and it's been a month or so, so the rest is
probably about over - if it ever really occurred at all) we'll start seeing
some significant improvements. No, they won't al happen at once, there are
still, and always will be, resource and schedule limitations; but fixes will
be coming.
How long should you wait? Only you can answer that. No one here knows what
fixes (or even if any of them) will be coming or when. Which ones? Who
knows? Will they help me and my clients? I'll have to wait and see. I hope
you do too.
--
Bob Greenblatt [MVP], Macintosh
bobgreenblattATmsnDOTcom
